I Was a CIA Operator for 25 Years — What I Saw Sent Me To Prison
Five and a half hours, one guest, almost no interruptions from the host. A man introduced as Michael Williams says he spent twenty five years with the CIA, first as a paramilitary contractor and then under non official cover running a real hedge fund, and that what he saw being stolen from American aid convoys in Ukraine is why he is now a convicted felon. He walks the whole arc in order: Annapolis, a cold call on a line that had never rung, six weeks of selection with no stated pass marks, getting shot through body armour, a reverse proffer that opened with a prosecutor saying no money was missing, and a judge who called it the strangest wire fraud case in thirty years.
Published Aug 17, 20265:30:31 video133 min readAdded Sep 9, 2026Open on YouTube →
At a glance
Five and a half hours, one guest, one table, two mugs. Ian Bick, who did federal time himself before he started interviewing people who have been through the system, sits across from a man he introduces as Michael Williams and who is addressed all the way through the conversation as Michael Wayne. Williams says he spent twenty five years working for the Central Intelligence Agency, first as a paramilitary contractor kicking in doors in the western hemisphere and then under non official cover running a real hedge fund as a real business while collecting real intelligence. He also pled guilty in October of 2023 to one count of wire fraud, served six months in a federal prison camp, and is on supervised release now.
His claim, told publicly for the first time in this interview, is that the two facts are the same fact. By his account he went to Ukraine in March of 2022 for his own disaster relief nonprofit, took charge of moving humanitarian and donated military supplies from Poland to the eastern front, found American aid being stolen out of warehouses, refused to stop saying so out loud, and was told by two senior intelligence colleagues that very powerful people had decided to "defang" him: destroy his credibility before he could become a whistleblower. He says the Securities and Exchange Commission reopened a dormant file, the Department of Justice followed within weeks, and the case ended with a felony conviction over a conversation he says he had and cannot document.
The interview is not primarily about that, though. It is a life told in order, at length, with almost no interruption. The Naval Academy and the phone booth where he learned his father was dying. The cold call on a phone line that had never rung. Six weeks of selection with no stated pass marks. Getting shot in the back through body armor before anyone had heard of al-Qaeda. A screenplay written in early 2001 whose opening scene is the bin Laden raid. A reverse proffer in a shabby Washington conference room where a prosecutor told him, before anything else, that they knew he had not stolen any money. An eighty something judge who said from the bench that this was the strangest wire fraud case he had seen in thirty years, and then sentenced him to a year and a day.
Bick barely speaks after the first hour. That is the format and the guest says so at the end, half apologising for it. What you get is one man's uninterrupted version of a career that by definition leaves very little behind that anyone else can check.
Figure 1. The structure of the story he tells. He calls it bifurcation and traces it back to high school, where the honours classes and the football team never met. Two lives, run in parallel for twenty five years, on purpose.
Tupelo, and the sporting goods store with his father's name on it
He grew up in Tupelo, Mississippi, the town Elvis Presley came from, a place of thirty to thirty five thousand people surrounded by much smaller towns. That made him and his friends the city kids by local standards, even though they were middle class and, in his word, sheltered. The town has been voted an all American city more times than he can count. He describes it without irony as a good American upbringing.
Both parents were in the picture. They started out as school teachers. His mother taught junior high. His father became an entrepreneur and bought a sporting goods store, and because the store was called Bill Williams Sporting Goods and his father's name was Bill Williams, the family name was the sign on the building. Say Bill Williams in that town and people would answer with the store. He says it was a small ego boost every time. It also planted something: he thinks the entrepreneurship gene is partly born and partly caught, and watching his father run his own shop put the seed in early.
He played everything, and having a dad in the sporting goods business made that easy. He was never spoiled but he never wanted for a bat or a glove or cleats. He had the first pair of Air Jordans that ever came out, with no idea who Michael Jordan was, because nobody did yet. He just knew they were cool shoes. He wishes he still had them.
The sports narrowed the way southern sports narrow: no hockey, no lacrosse, no skiing, so football and baseball, with church basketball on the side. He was enormous early, around six feet tall at eleven, which meant he dominated by size until everybody caught up. He remembers the exact moment it flipped. He turned around in the high school cafeteria line to ask his best friend for money, did the thing he had done his whole life, look over and look down, and found himself looking up at a friend who was now six foot three and bigger than him. "When did you get taller than me?"
The teams were serious. Nationally ranked in football and baseball, multiple state championships, one year leading the nation in no hitters and winning a state title in the same season. They were on ESPN when there was only one ESPN. A friend went on Teen Jeopardy. Another went on The Tonight Show as a magician. Another was one of the best guitar players he has ever seen. His best friend got drafted in the first round by the New York Mets and happened to also be Elvis's cousin. The town would make a fuss for a day and then everybody went back to being normal kids.
There is a small, funny, slightly melancholy story in here that he tells against himself. In a maths class he apparently pointed out a shortcut, four steps collapsed into two, and came back to class one day to hear the teacher call it by his name. He was baffled: he had assumed everyone knew that. Twenty years later he saw the same teacher and asked if she remembered the day she said he had invented a formula. She said no. He laughs about it. "That might have been like a big deal. Like I could have gotten published for that or something." Simple observation, dumb luck, ten minutes of feeling important, and then gone.
He also sang. He was in chorus, which became cool at his school because a couple of older football players joined first and made it acceptable, and because, as he puts it with total candour, all the good looking girls were in chorus. The choral programme won national competitions, and he credits part of that to having six foot tall weightlifting football players who could sing the bass parts, which most schools did not have.
That is where the bifurcation starts, and he names it himself. All day in the accelerated and AP classes with the kids winning academic competitions, never seeing his other friends. Then practice at the end of the day with the jocks. Then the weekends with the jocks. He never talked about Fibonacci sequences and fractal maths in the locker room, and he never talked about cover two coverage and changing his grip to go the opposite way in the honours classroom. Different languages, same core person. "Which served me very well as my life progressed."
The calling, and applying to apply
He wanted the United States Naval Academy, and he is unembarrassed about why. He felt a calling to serve, and the analogy he reaches for is a minister or a priest feeling called to follow God. As cheesy as that may sound, he says, that is what it was.
The application process he describes belongs to a vanished world. This was right before the internet and email were normal, so everything was on paper. You applied to apply. You sent off for the packet, filled it in with a ballpoint pen, mailed it back. You needed a congressional appointment, which is its own set of applications and its own campaign of impressing politicians, or an appointment from the president or vice president. He had zero connections to anyone in Mississippi politics. What he had were the teams, the grades, one B in his whole high school career (from missing a month with chickenpox, still a burr under his saddle), the AP classes, and the leadership record.
About twelve thousand people apply. About eleven or twelve hundred get in. He got into West Point as well. He did not bother applying to the Air Force Academy.
Then the part that he still finds absurd about himself: he had never set foot on the campus. He went to college four or five hundred miles from home having never visited, never really spoken to anyone who went there, knowing only what was in the catalogue. His first day in Annapolis was the day before induction day, and plebe summer, which is the boot camp, started the next morning. He thinks he reported around 29 June.
He describes the school the way people describe endurance events, which is deliberate, because he hates endurance events and does them for that reason. "I hated triathlon so I kind of wanted to make them my plaything. I wanted to win them. Not just survive them but win them." Never did. Got fairly decent. The same instinct, he says, is why he ended up on the paramilitary side of things: it was something he hated, so he wanted to conquer it.
The academic shock was real. He had assumed everyone there would be like him, a jock who was also pretty smart and probably more jock than smart. What he found was the smartest kid from six counties in every direction, who could also do fifty push ups. He was behind the curve. He describes coming back to the hall after a test and comparing papers to see who got the worst, and the numbers being 17s and 20s rather than the 97s everyone made in high school, with the actual brilliant students making 97s and being told they were killing everybody. Curves saved a lot of people.
The commitment is the part he thinks people underestimate. At the time you owed five years after graduation, so signing up at seventeen or eighteen meant committing nine years, more than half the life you had lived. Bick does the arithmetic out loud: "That's half life already." Exactly, he says. You are looking at being in your late twenties before you can even think about getting out, which at seventeen feels like being an old man.
There was one other daily ritual that mattered later: as a freshman you had to read three newspaper articles every day and be ready to report on any of them to anyone who asked. You got your paper at half past five in the morning. By seven an upperclassman might say, tell me about the second one, tell me about the helicopters in Uzbekistan, and you had to give an informative book report from memory. He was, in other words, being trained to consume and summarise open source intelligence before he had heard the phrase.
He calls Annapolis a tough place to be and a great place to be from, and he means it about the leadership training rather than the résumé. He also goes out of his way to praise the enlisted pipeline, sailors who perform in the fleet and then get accepted, because they arrive knowing how to salute, how to march, how to wear the uniform, and they teach everybody else. One of his good friends came in that way.
The phone booth
He was there for two years.
In the winter of his sophomore year, which the Academy calls youngster year, his father died of lung cancer. He had been sick for a year, was diagnosed and operated on within a week or two, went into remission for a few months, and died almost exactly one year to the day after the surgery. The cancer had moved from the lung to his hip, to the iliac crest of the pelvis, which took his leg and his walking with it. He refused the wheelchair. There were stairs. His mother, still teaching junior high, took a sabbatical at some point near the end and carried nearly all of it alone. They never hired anyone. He calls her a soldier.
While that was happening his father had sold the bigger of the two stores. The big store did team outfitting: entire university and high school teams, every sport, all the way down to a group of friends who wanted matching jerseys and socks for a softball team. What was left was a smaller retail shop, still open, but on life support.
The way the news reached him is the detail that stays with you. No cell phones. If someone needed to reach a midshipman, they called the main office at Annapolis, which sent a runner up to the company, about a hundred and twenty people of all ranks living together in one wing of the same enormous dormitory. The watch stander then found you and handed you a message with a number on it. You went down to the phone room, a room full of pay phones, past the era of feeding in quarters but not past the calling card, and you got into what he describes as a literal phone booth and shut the doors.
His best friend's father was on the other end. "You need to go ahead and come home."
And he pushed back, because from inside the building the request sounded impossible. "You know where I am. I can't just be like, see you, I'm going to jump in the car and come home. One, I'm in Maryland. Two, I'm on a military base, which is effectively like a prison. You can't just leave. And I didn't have a car even if I wanted to."
"Yeah. You need to go ahead and come home."
That was when he understood. He went to Captain Chamberlain, the Marine officer in charge of his company, who made it work. He flew out that day or the next and got home just in time. He was there when his father died.
The call at the funeral
Two or three days later, after the wake and the visitation and the funeral, seventy people back at the house, aunts and uncles and cousins, he walked in the back door and the phone on the kitchen wall was ringing. Somebody answered it and said, this is for you.
It was Captain Chamberlain. He had not checked in. He had not even thought about checking in, because his head was not in Maryland and differential equations and Aegis class cruisers, it was on his father. And the captain, gently, said the thing that has to be said: you cannot just leave a military base as an active duty member of the Navy and stay as long as you want. It is not a vacation.
He says the captain never actually said those words. They just all ran through his head at once, and his first thought was: am I in trouble?
"Well, captain, I actually just walked in the door from my father's funeral. Can I call you back in a couple of hours?"
"Oh my God. Yes, of course. Of course."
He apologises to Bick for the tangent. It is not a tangent. It is the pivot of his life.
Family above country
Soon after, he worked out that nobody had been running the store. His mother had been consumed by his father's illness. A few people had tried to help here and there but it was not anyone's priority. It was near bankruptcy. His mother went into hospital herself not long after the funeral, worn out.
He was the only son and the youngest. His sisters had jobs and families. He had a college place. So the maths, as he describes it, was not close.
"Of course family comes above country. As much of a patriot as I was and am, and as much as I wanted to serve, my family needs me. So that's a no brainer."
People still ask him whether leaving Annapolis was hard. His answer is that he cannot even think about it that way, because it was not a decision in the sense of weighing two options. Do I regret it? No. Do I wish things had been different? Absolutely.
He is also careful about how he frames his own resolve, and then unusually blunt about the fact that people do not believe him. He says he never once thought about quitting Annapolis. Not a single day. Classmates call BS on that, and he says so himself: "We all thought about it. Come on. You didn't think about it?" And he insists. Never crossed his mind to the point of not being able to hack it. The only time leaving entered his head was the day he had to leave.
Setting the stage to come back
He did the whole withdrawal process properly, the signatures, the equipment turn in, the interviews, and he set up something that essentially nobody sets up: a return.
Nobody comes back to the service academies. People leave for three reasons, he says. You get thrown out for an honour violation. You fail out academically or militarily. Or you quit because you hate it. There is no transferring in, no open door. If you spend three years at Harvard and then get accepted to Annapolis, you start as a plebe, twenty one years old, day one, exactly like the kid from Tupelo who had never seen the campus.
His precedent was the Mormons. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints at the Academy would take a year out for a mission and come back and pick up where they left off. He was class of 1997 and proposed to drop to the class of 1998. The Academy agreed in principle: process the withdrawal first, then start the other side of it once you are out.
The plan even had an academic hedge. He would go to Mississippi State, an hour from home, and take the same classes he would have taken in his junior year at Annapolis. He could not transfer the grades, but he would not sit on a couch for a year, and when he came back he would breeze through the second time. C grades would become B grades. B grades would become A grades. Making a C at Annapolis, he notes, is actually pretty good.
Within a month of getting home the call came from Annapolis. We need to know right now. We need to start the paperwork.
He asked for time. He had just walked in the door. He had a dying business, a mother in hospital, a house, a family. And here is where the honour code cuts against him, and he knows it, and he says so plainly: he could not in good conscience say yes and sign commitment papers he was not certain he could honour. Everything Annapolis had put in him, honour and duty and loyalty and truth and do not tell a lie, made the lie unavailable.
A couple of weeks later: all right, we need to know. And still: I cannot commit to that. This is a year away.
"So ultimately it was like, I guess I'm not coming back. If you need an answer right now, the answer is no."
He is honest about what he would do differently now. "If I were doing it today, I might have fudged that a little bit and been like, absolutely, I'll sign wherever you need me to," on the theory that in a litigious world a civilian can back out of a signature. He was not in the military at that moment. He was a civilian. People sign at recruiting offices and change their minds two weeks later and get let out.
That is the whole hinge of the story. An honest answer given on time closed the Navy, and about three years later an unlisted phone rang in Atlanta.
Running his father's store, and a degree he did not collect
He came home, ran the business and turned it around. His mother retired from teaching at the end of that year and he handed the store to her, reshaped as a straightforward retail shop where she showed up, kept it stocked, ran the register and talked to people all day. That was deliberate. After a death, he says, friends and family come by for a while and then they have their own lives and they stop coming, and his mother was alone in a fairly big house on two acres. The store gave her somewhere to be every day.
He went to Mississippi State and, by his own description, enjoyed himself enormously while also being an adult. He was twenty and already running a business, and he had the discipline and leadership training from Annapolis, which he says made him grow up fast.
The academic contrast produced one of the most quietly loaded analogies in the whole interview, and he flags it as he says it. Mississippi State after Annapolis, he says, is "like going from a maximum security to a prison camp. It's vastly different, and the prison camp is going to feel vastly easier than the max security." He apologises to the school as he says it. He gave speeches at that business school later and loves the faculty. He just was not putting in twenty hours of study for a test any more, more like twenty minutes or two.
He got a business degree, a bachelor of arts in business administration as best he remembers, and did not go to his own graduation. No cap and gown, no photographs, no party. His mother knew he had graduated. He treated it as a box to check on the way to being an adult he already effectively was.
Cash App, and the toll text that nearly got the host
The interview takes its one sponsor break here, and it is worth a paragraph because of who is telling it. Bick, who interviews fraud investigators, IRS agents, detectives and former scammers for a living, admits he almost got caught by a text message claiming he owed an unpaid toll. He laughed at it, then clicked it, then thought, wait, did I actually drive through a toll somewhere. For about forty five seconds he talked himself all the way into it, and he was about to send money before he stopped and thought, Ian, what are you doing.
His point is the one worth keeping: scams do not catch people who are not paying attention, they catch people who are busy, distracted or in a hurry. The read then goes to Cash App card security, the one tap card lock, automatic declines on suspicious transactions and round the clock fraud monitoring, plus a sign up code. The self awareness is the interesting part. The man who does this for a living got to forty five seconds.
The landlord with a line out the door
Back in college, alongside helping his mother run the store, he started buying real estate, and the origin story is one sentence of pure observation.
He and a friend lived in a two bedroom one bath shoe box in the Cotton District in Starkville, the coolest part of town for students. Rent was paid by physically dropping a cheque at the landlord's office once a month, and there was a line out the door of that office every day of the week because the man owned a great deal of property.
"This is the job, man. I got to get into this."
He had turned eighteen and immediately taken out a credit card purely to start building a credit score, which by his early twenties gave him two or three years of history. He had a small inheritance from his father, a few thousand dollars, and money he had made running the store while living at home. A developer had four new town houses left. He said he would take all four.
"Hold on, hot shot. You know, you're twenty."
The plan he pitched: live in one of them, take a roommate to cover his half, rent out the other three, live for free with a little left over each month. The developer liked being sold out. The bank did not. "Yeah, see you later, child." He was six foot one and around two hundred and five or two hundred and ten pounds from being in the athletics weight room, so he looked like a grown man, and it still took a small town relationship rather than a transaction to get the loan across the line. His mother put in no money but guaranteed the loans somehow, as a backstop he insists he did not want. She agreed to it because she had watched him save the sporting goods store.
That was the beginning of a portfolio that eventually ran to well over a hundred residential properties. His rule was always to buy new construction, because new means fewer headaches, and to sell before the age related repairs started, the way you sell a car before the twenty thousand dollar bathroom and the fifty thousand dollar kitchen come due. "It was a great gig." Property income also meant something else, which turns out to matter enormously later: he could own it from anywhere. He calls himself a business nomad before the phrase existed.
In 1998 a best friend from college moved to Atlanta for a job in the furniture industry and asked if he wanted to come. He had been to Atlanta maybe twice. He said sure, why not.
He also gambled, seriously and mathematically. He minored in maths, likes statistics and probability, and treated sports betting as a probability exercise, looking for lines he judged to be mispriced. Fraternities, he says, are giant betting parlours. He learned by fire, lost plenty, made plenty. And he offers the caution that a good gambler and a good analyst share: humans are notorious for seeing patterns where patterns do not exist, in markets and everywhere else. Then he turns it over. If enough people believe the trend, the trend becomes real and the probability was correct after all, which is a self fulfilling prophecy and, in his telling, "the way the world works."
Atlanta in 1998 was, in his words, awesome. The Super Bowl came to town. The city changed after that. Then 2001 changed everything.
The phone that never rang
He had his own phone line in his room in the two bedroom apartment. It existed for outgoing calls and privacy so he never interrupted his roommate mid business call, and it had its own answering machine. That phone never rang.
One day it rang.
"Is this Michael Wayne?"
Yes. Do you live at such and such. Yes. A couple more questions, and by the fourth or fifth he was on the edge of telling the man he was doing a terrible job of selling whatever he was selling, because he had not mentioned the product yet.
There was no product. The man said he worked for an agency. That they had been following him, not in a nefarious way, in a complimentary way, the way a recruiter is a fan of a candidate. And the man knew a great deal.
The strangeness of it lands hard when he explains it. He had been out of Annapolis for two years. He had never been approached about intelligence work, at the Academy or since. And this man was calling on an unlisted line that essentially nobody had, on a phone that was outgoing only.
"I work for an agency. You've heard of us. We're interested in having a conversation with you, if you would be open to that conversation."
Which agency? Is this the Department of Agriculture? I'm from Mississippi but I don't know anything about growing cotton or soybeans.
He cannot remember whether the caller said the letters out loud. It did not matter. The next instruction settled it. Go online, go to this website, print out the application, fill it in, fax it to this number. This was before online forms, so the whole thing happened on paper and through a fax machine, a device he notes a lot of people now would not recognise. The website was not cia.gov, which today anyone can visit and apply through. It was some address with a sentence for a name.
A few days later: we got your application. We want to meet.
Alpharetta, third floor
The meeting was not at Langley. It was in Alpharetta, Georgia, forty minutes north of Atlanta, then suburbs and now nearly city. A nondescript office building. Nothing on the front of it. Nothing elite or official about it at all. Third floor, knock on a door.
Two men inside.
He turned up in a suit with a short haircut, buttoned up, determined to impress the hell out of them, because this was the real deal and, crucially, a way back to the thing he had lost. The calling had not gone away when he left Annapolis. He describes exactly what he felt he had missed: his classmates had graduated, joined the fleet, become SEALs and Marines, learned to fly Tomcats and F-18 Hornets, turned into Tom Cruise and Charlie Sheen, while he was in Atlanta drinking four nights a week and having a blast and not contributing anything.
He is precise about the era, too, which is easy to forget. This was 1998, the second Clinton term, the military downsized, bases closing, no soldiers in airports because there was no war. Between Panama, the brief Gulf War years earlier and Mogadishu, which he knows through Black Hawk Down, there was almost nothing. He had flown in uniform repeatedly during those two Academy years, to his father's funeral and both grandmothers' funerals and to see a hospitalised uncle and then his hospitalised mother, and he says it was unusual to see anyone in uniform in an airport at all.
The two men in the room were a study in contrast, and he thinks that was the point.
One was, in his phrase, a doughboy. A desk jockey. Not James Bond. Not Jason Bourne, who did not exist yet on screen. He is careful to be complimentary: very smart, very nice, someone who stayed in his life for a while afterwards, a man who could ride a desk and still be a razor. He did not need to bench five hundred pounds to be sharp.
The other man was cut out of the mould, said almost nothing, and was there, he believes, to show him what this could become. That one was paramilitary, doing the work nobody knew about, which in 1998 you did not even see in films.
He walked out wanting the next step. And he notes something about the interview itself that is really a comment on institutions: the few genuinely good interviews of his life have been for jobs and graduate programmes where the people running them knew what they were doing. They were not trying to be clever interviewers. They had done their homework and they knew within a minute whether you fitted.
He also knew not to ask. Bick jokes about it: tell me who killed JFK. Are UFOs real. Exactly, he says. That question is the fastest possible way to be shown the door.
Why him
Bick asks the good question. Did they tell you why you?
They did, and the list is unglamorous and specific. He had done solidly at Annapolis, not the best student, a good one. He was very good militarily. He was a good shot. He was a certified scuba diver. He had skydived. He had skied. He was comfortable in water, on a mountain, in the cold. He was a good leader and had served on an honour board, which is a statement about trustworthiness as much as leadership.
Bick works out the rest out loud: there was a list, and it came from the school, and it flagged that this one left for a reason that was not an honour violation or a failure.
"So, put it this way, had you never been to that school, they probably never would have called you."
"No. Not in a million years, I don't think."
And then the second half of the profile, which is the part that reads as a recruiter's shopping list. He had gone from the Academy straight into running a business, showing entrepreneurial drive. He had no job to report to. He owned real estate, which is not a daily job, so he could work from anywhere. Somehow they knew he was not looking for work. No fiancée, no steady girlfriend, no children.
"So I was a free agent. In shape, strong, smart, motivated, a huge patriot, wanted to serve my country, and had no ties to keep me from doing any of that."
Be in Virginia on this day
The next stage was not a first class ticket and a hotel. It was "if you're interested in the next step, be in Virginia on this day at this time." He understood that to be part of the test. How resourceful is he. How motivated. How entitled does he feel. He admits he probably did feel like a bit of a big shot at the time, owning property and having a good life going.
He thought he was going to CIA headquarters. He was not. Another nondescript office building on the outskirts of Washington. He was mildly disappointed. He loves Washington, all the history and the monuments, and he notes with a flat sort of irony that it stayed a good place to visit right up until the day he drove there for his reverse proffer.
The day itself was a gauntlet: a handful of interviewers, an hour each, more probing than the first round, a little more of here is what we do and a little more of can you actually handle this. He does not think he took a polygraph at that point, though he certainly took one before he signed anything.
He has a view on polygraphs, and it is worth quoting because he does not soften it. They are a total waste of time as a lie detector. What they are is a prophylactic. "It scares the shit out of you. And that's the point." If you know you have to sit one, you are less likely to do anything you would then have to lie about. He compares it directly to the drug testing regime he lives under now on supervised release: you do not drink, because the test might be tomorrow, or might be never, and you are not going to take the chance.
Then he went home and heard nothing. He did not even have a number to chase it. Eventually the call came, and the wording matters: it was not a job offer, it was a training offer. Like plebe summer, you can quit at any time and they send you home, no obligation. You may still never make it. We would like you to come and try.
The contractor turn
What he did not know, and only worked out later, was that they were still deciding what he was going to be.
He signed up thinking he was going to the Farm to become a CIA officer. He says that is roughly what the plan was. Then it changed, and he lists the forces he thinks bent it without claiming to know: the shape of the agency at the end of a downsizing decade, a coming change of administration, and the way the world was moving. Al-Qaeda had just bombed two American embassies in East Africa. The USS Cole had not happened yet. He is explicit that he is reading into things he was not privy to.
He signed his commitment papers, by his memory, on 11 September 1998. He corrects himself mid sentence, having first said 2008, and tells Bick to catch him on dates because he will get them wrong. Three years before the date meant anything to anyone. Until then it was his cousin's birthday, which he notes has been a rough birthday to have for twenty five years.
The offer, when it came, was not a menu. It was: we want you to work for this contractor.
"You're going to be effectively paramilitary. You're going to be kicking in doors. You're going to be taking out bad guys. You're going to be protecting good guys. You're going to be doing all the things you wanted to do as a SEAL. You're just not going to be wearing an American flag when you do it. And you're not going to call your mom or your girlfriend when you're done and say, mom, guess what I just did."
Could you tell anyone you worked for the CIA?
"Zero."
Not a soul, from the very first phone call. And he adds the part that makes it a test rather than a rule: he could have told someone. They would have found out.
Figure 2. The escalation ladder as he describes it. Each rung down buys the United States more deniability and gives the operator less cover. He worked the bottom rung for about ten years.
The labyrinth, and the honeycomb
Before he describes the training, he describes the information architecture, and it is one of the clearest passages in the interview.
There is not one level of top secret with everybody at the top knowing everything. Top secret as a clearance is not, in his framing, a huge hurdle: defence contractors clear it routinely. What matters is being read in to a specific operation.
"It's a masked ball in a labyrinth with a thousand doors, and you open one door and there are two more, and you open one of those doors and there are five more."
Everything is sensitive compartmented information, organised like honeycomb, so that everybody does not know what everybody else is doing, because that is a liability. He says the director of the CIA does not know everything either. The physical expression of it is the SCIF, which he half remembers the expansion of on camera and apologises to the intelligence community for fumbling: a soundproof room, swept for bugs, where you know the room is clean and everybody on the other end of the line is in a clean room too, so the only way this leaks is if a participant leaks it afterwards.
And then the counterintuitive consequence, which is the part most people get backwards. In that world you actively do not want to know things.
"As interesting as it may be, who killed JFK, tell me, tell me, tell me. It's like, I'm not read in on that. So don't tell me, because now I'm on the hook for it. Now I'm liable. If something happens about all this, they're going to cast a net and I don't want to be in that net. If I've never heard anything about it, I can sit for that lie detector test and say I don't know anything about it, and it'll be flatline, flying colours."
Curiosity is a liability. That is the actual operating rule.
He extends the same logic to secrecy generally, and he does it in the least melodramatic way available. Yes, talking breaches national security at some point. But mostly, he says, you are just being a dick. It is exactly like a friend saying, I need to tell you something, please do not tell anybody, and you say yes, and then you either keep it or you do not. In training, if you do not, you are no longer a candidate. And, he adds, they will come after you, legally, because they can.
Six weeks, and rivers and colours
The first block was about six weeks, starting, by his memory, at the beginning of 1998. He is careful with his phrasing here and says he does not want to get into hot water with operator friends by overclaiming: it was in the realm of special forces training, a version of it, with elements of tier one and tier two military selection compressed into six weeks. Boats and sand and swimming and drown proofing and the general suck of it.
The purpose of that part is not to teach anything. "It's to make you want to hate life and to quit. That's the primary goal for part of it."
He was, he believes, the only one in his cohort who had not come directly from the military. The rest were former SEALs, Delta operators, Marines, Force Recon, possibly some pararescue. The cohort was mixed deliberately, for the diversity of perspective, and he offers a nice sports metaphor for why: the military operators are all playing baseball, one playing small ball and one playing big ball and sometimes swapping, but the same game. He came at it from a different angle. He also had to learn their game, and it was much harder for him than for them, because they had already been through selection and had actually deployed.
He thought he was in great shape. He was not. He got in great shape.
Then there was the clandestine half, which he thinks of as the Farm element: when they were not running or swimming or drown proofing or shooting or clearing rooms, they were being taught to be case officers. How a case officer goes into a foreign country and starts recruiting spies. Surveillance detection routes. How to hotwire a car. How to pick a lock. Defensive driving, aggressive driving, how to run somebody off the road. "Really cool fun stuff, but under a lot of pressure, because you're not just learning it, you're getting tested on it at the same time."
There were no names. They used rivers and colours: he was Blue Danube for a couple of days, then at some random point Black Rhine. The instructors had to check cheat sheets before yelling at anyone, which produced the small comedy of hearing somebody being torn apart and thinking, God, that Black Rhine is getting his ass kicked, before realising it is you.
Just go
The single sharpest piece of pedagogy he describes is the withholding of the metrics.
Here is a three mile run. Go.
What is my time? What is my pace? What do I need to hit?
Just don't worry about it. Just go.
He unpacks exactly why that is diabolical. It is eight in the morning and there are twelve more hours of this. Do you go all out? Is this a real test or a warm up for the day? A six minute mile and a ten minute mile leave you with completely different amounts of fuel for everything that comes after. So you guess. And the same applied to everything: shooting, dives, swims, runs. Some of it was scored. Some of it was not. You never knew which.
People failed a shooting test and were gone. People washed out. Thirty or forty in the cohort, no announced number of jobs, and elite operators alongside him who all wanted the same slots. He is clear that the standard was not that you walk in the door as an elite operator, although some of them did. The standard was that you understand how the world works, and that you understand your own breaking points.
Get home
The training exercise he remembers best is the one that is pure tradecraft.
Civilian clothes, three or four of them in a car, split up, sometimes dropped alone with a trainer in the middle of a town or outside a shopping mall. Get home. Come back to the base.
But I do not have anything. No money. No wallet. No ID. I cannot get back through security.
"Yeah. What the hell do you think we've been doing for the past six hours? You just learned how to do all this. Figure it out."
How to manipulate people. How to spot people. Elicitation. You can get things from people by begging, or you can get things from people other ways. And there were rules about what you could not say. You could not, for instance, walk up to a stranger and claim you had a fraternity bet that you could not get back to a place within two hours and offer twenty dollars for gas. That is the easy solution, so it is banned. Find another one.
Some people did not get back in time. Some did not get back at all. And nobody told you afterwards whether that particular one had even been scored.
Knowing your mile
The other thing they were teaching, and the thing he clearly still finds beautiful, is calibrated self knowledge.
He brings up the scene in The Bourne Identity where Matt Damon's character reels off everything he has noticed in a café. The licence plates he calls a bit of a stretch. Sitting with your back to the wall facing the door he calls basic, something he knew before he ever touched intelligence work. What impressed him, and what made him respect the film's research, was one line, which he paraphrases: I know I can run flat out for a mile before my hands start shaking.
Bick does not see why that matters. Here is why.
"If your hands are shaking, you can't shoot straight."
So you learn what your own mile is, by step count and heart rate and feel, the way distance runners know where they are without a watch. And then it becomes a decision rule. If your number is a mile and you are at three quarters of a mile and you are still being chased, something has to change immediately: either you get somewhere you will not need to shoot, or you stop, turn around and start shooting at the earliest possible opportunity, because you are about to stop being effective and the people chasing you are in a car and have not been running at all.
He is careful that the number is personal. For some people it is two miles. For some it is a hundred yards. "Right now for me it's probably a hundred yards." He calls it a yogi, spiritualistic idea, being present in the moment, know thyself, and says it is genuinely essential at that level of operating.
There was no graduation. "Thanks, you're done." Go home, go about your business, we will let you know something. Which might be two days or two weeks or two months.
The grey man, and why he has no tattoos
There is a thread of aesthetics here that turns out to be operational.
He points out that today's operators look the way they look, sleeves of tattoos, beards, long hair, a deliberate scruffiness on a military base, and that this is a post 2001 development which reads as a bragging right. Regular military cannot look like that. Dress and grooming standards apply. So the grungier you are allowed to be, the more obviously you are somebody special. He is warm about it. They earned it.
Look at photographs from the seventies, eighties and nineties, though, and the same units look like accountants: khakis, penny loafers, clean cut, maybe glasses, carrying assault rifles.
He had no tattoos and no obvious markings, and the reason goes back to the Office of Strategic Services and the birth of American intelligence: the grey man, who comes in and out of anywhere and nobody remembers he was there. Not because he is a ninja. Because he made no impression.
"I can walk in a room and make a big impression and be happy fun Mike, and I can walk in a room and leave two hours later and not make it obvious that I'm going to go hide in a corner, but just be normal. Go in a coffee shop for two hours, order coffee, work on my laptop, look like a normal everyday civilian, and I leave and nobody knows I've been there."
He cannot grow a beard, which he says has been a lifelong disappointment. He looks very distinctly American, which he says stood out in the Middle East and produced a nickname that became his call sign around the world. He does not tell us what it was.
The pager years
He finished, with no ceremony, and became part of the team. Then more training, more classrooms, and the fun parts: military diving, which he was fast tracked through because he already held a civilian licence and was not a civilian, and skydiving on the same accelerated basis.
The work itself started about a year in.
His description of when a contractor team gets the call is the operational heart of Figure 2. When the Department of Defense does not want to be involved, because America does not want the exposure, they call the CIA, and the CIA puts Ground Branch on it out of the Directorate of Operations. Sometimes they do not want to send those men either. Those are tier one operators, door kickers, doing the same work as SEAL Team Six and Delta Force, just completely clandestine and off the books. We were not supposed to be here. America is not involved in this whatsoever.
So they called his team, and the reason was liability rather than capability. He is emphatic that they were no better than Ground Branch, who he calls razors, the best of the best, and says he would put his team against them. The reason to call the contractor was that if the contractor got caught, nobody had to answer for it. "Who are these guys? These guys are just some hooahs out with some guns playing army. Maybe they're just bad dudes that want to rob that drug lord they're trying to take down."
The rhythm of the job was a pager. He would get paged, then called, then told a time and a place, and get on a plane or in a car. He had the same clearance as CIA staff officers and none of the red tape, which he characterises with a joke he uses more than once: the agency is a government organisation, so you need three signatures before you can tie your shoelace, and permission from Santa Claus and the director and his dog walker's babysitter before you can go to the bathroom.
Sometimes they flew straight to the operation. Sometimes they flew somewhere else first to do workups, a few days to a week or two of rehearsal depending on the size of the job and how many groups were involved. Are we going wet. Are we going kinetic. Are we pulling triggers and kicking doors, or are we sitting on a hill watching a house? He is quick to correct his own exaggeration mid sentence: not two months on a hill, they rotated out. The point of sending them for surveillance at all was that they could go kinetic if the situation demanded it. Otherwise you just hire a local with binoculars.
There is a small logistical detail he only understood in retrospect, and which his sister put together decades later. He has always lived in a city with a huge airport. Atlanta, home to what was then and may still be the busiest airport in the world, was possibly one of the reasons they recruited him when they did. He could be on a plane within an hour.
That sister conversation is one of the more affecting moments in the interview. He had to tell her the truth because he filed a petition for a presidential pardon and needed her to sponsor it and write a letter. "I need to tell you something, because I need you to write a letter for me and I want you to say all the things you know, but there's a whole other life that you don't know about." He describes her eyes going wide, and then something better: the tumblers of the lock started to fall into place. Thirty years of small oddities suddenly had a shape.
He puts his own service length at twenty seven years in the pardon petition, and twenty five when he describes the career.
Shot in the back
He got shot before 11 September 2001, on an operation, wearing body armour of a kind he notes was different thirty years ago.
The round he thinks was a green tip, though he says they never really established it. A colleague had taken shrapnel and he was crouched over him helping. He is dryly self deprecating about the drama of it: the man was fine, it was not a sucking chest wound, "I'm glad for him, but it'd be a cooler story if it was."
The round pierced the armour and went into his back. It missed his spine by a couple of millimetres. It did not go deep enough to reach heart or lungs. His arms and hands were numb for a while and it took a couple of months to recover. The armour, he says, more or less did its job. Not quite.
That injury, plus the sense that the pre 2001 world was not busy enough to justify the life, is what first made him want out. He was rehabbing, running his investment company, and had one foot out the door.
He also had a screenplay.
The screenplay he wrote in February 2001
He had written a script that was, in Hollywood language, getting a little heat. He had an agent. He was in meetings with producers, studios and actors.
The plot: terrorists from Afghanistan come to America as a sleeper cell and attack the Naval Academy, which he knew intimately. They blow up the arena where the whole brigade assembles, killing about four thousand people, the entire student body plus officers and teachers, leaving only the handful standing watch in the dormitory. They take the survivors hostage. Among the hostages is the president's son, who in the script is a midshipman. The story is the midshipmen going from playing at being soldiers to actually being them.
The opening scene is men fast roping from a helicopter hovering over a two or three storey compound in Afghanistan, kitted out in black, night vision on, taking the compound and taking down a bad guy.
He wrote it in January and February of 2001.
Bick reaches for the wrong comparison first, thinking of the bin Laden raid ten years later, and the guest corrects the framing: it was about eight or nine months before 11 September, and roughly ten years before the raid whose opening it resembles. And at the time nobody knew where Afghanistan was or cared about Afghan terrorists. They might have half heard something about embassy bombings, but that was old news to the public. It was fresh in his mind only because that is what the clandestine world was thinking about in early 2000.
He is completely unmystical about it. Afghans came to America, a sleeper cell blew up a building, three thousand people died rather than four, nobody was taken hostage. And then, of course, nobody wanted to make a film about Afghan terrorists blowing up an American building, so the screenwriting career ended in the same week the rest of the world changed.
The blank cheque
11 September pulled him all the way back in, and he is candid about the mixture of feelings, which is one of the more honest passages in the interview.
He was in Atlanta. He remembers the first reports, a cross country flight, he thinks Boston to Los Angeles, hitting a building in New York, and the reasonable first thought: is this a mistake, was it a small plane, someone once flew into the Empire State Building. Then he registered what a transcontinental jet actually is.
"When I heard about a jet airliner full of fuel, because from Boston to LA that's a full tank, my first thought was, that's a bomb. We're under attack. We're going to war."
And then the second thought, which he does not dress up. "This is horrible, but it's time to go, and it's time to show what you got, and it's time to man up. And whoever did this just signed their death warrant, and I get to be a part of it, and I'm extremely excited about that."
He reaches for Robert E. Lee, fumbles the quote on camera and then finds it: it is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it. He calls Lee a man probably remembered in history as a bad guy and uses the line anyway, as the honest description of why warriors want the thing they say they want to prevent.
Institutionally, 11 September was a blank cheque. Before it, the red tape had been the reason nobody took bin Laden out: permission, signatures, and above all nobody wanting to hold the liability if something went wrong. Afterwards, that went out of the window, and he credits George W. Bush directly and unhesitatingly for loosening the restrictions that let them go and dismantle al-Qaeda.
It also forced the agency to rewire itself. Before, the geography and the specialisms were separate: geographic regions, then centres like the Counterterrorism Center, then directorates, operations and analysis and science and technology, which he calls the gadget shop and says has only got better. His illustration of what science and technology can do is delivered casually enough to be alarming: "I can pull everything from your cell phone while we're just sitting here drinking Cokes, and you don't know it." The directive after 2001 was to bring it in house, so an analyst sits beside a case officer who is building spy networks, who sits beside a targeter who finds people for the Hellfire missiles.
The drone passage is a small technical history told from the inside. The Predator was new when the attacks happened, and arming it was a separate revolution: unmanned aircraft that can shoot, with no pilot to lose. For a few years they were nearly unbreakable, because a jet scrambled to intercept one is going far too fast to engage a slow propeller aircraft that is not much more than a very large model plane. Then came the munitions problem. Early strikes would kill the car and you would watch a man stagger out of the blast on camera and get into another vehicle. So the warheads were changed, more metal on the tip, more fragmentation on detonation. After that, no more walking away.
He hears himself and pre empts the objection. "It sounds morbid to tell that story like look how great this was and be excited about it, but we're at war, man. These guys just attacked our country." He is precise about the intent: not kill them all, but kill all the bad guys with no remorse whatsoever, as quickly and effectively as possible, and he says they succeeded in many ways, alongside thousands of others.
And then the line he says taught him his first real lesson about how this ends. He attributes it to Cofer Black, who ran the Counterterrorism Center on 11 September and through the campaign against bin Laden's network. Black said, half jokingly and not jokingly at all: we are all going down for this.
"When people go to war and generals lose the war, they shoot the generals. When people win the war, people still shoot the generals. So we're going to do what we need to do, we're going to do it right, we're going to do it as effectively as we can, and we're going to protect the innocent and harm the bad guys. And when this is all over, we're probably going to look like bad guys, because that's what we signed up for."
His gloss on why: intelligence people can never tell you what they did or how many lives they saved, so covertness reads as guilt. If they are in the shadows and we do not know about it, they must be doing something bad. He draws the conclusion out to its personal edge, which is where the rest of the interview lives: "They can get you if they want you. And you need to be prepared for that at any given time."
There is a small aside about air support that captures the register of the whole hour. The A-10, he explains, is a plane built around a gun: they specified the Gatling gun first and told the manufacturer to build an airframe around it. He cannot remember the rate of fire any more, which annoys him because that is exactly the kind of fact you had to know at the Naval Academy. What he remembers is the sound.
"When you hear that as a good guy, you're like, oh, baby. That's like hearing the woman you love tell you she loves you. It's Christmas morning."
Two rules for a life
Somewhere in the middle of the 2000s he also spent about five years working in trauma as a consultant, alongside brain surgeons. He has seen, in his listing, a great many brains, open hearts, facial gunshot wounds, car crashes, anything involving the head and bone fixation. "If you saw me in a hospital, you weren't having a good day."
The story he tells from that period is about the smartest man he ever met, a Syrian neurosurgeon he calls Dr. Muhana, who he blesses on air in case he is still alive. They were driving to lunch with a machinist who fabricated prototypes for the surgeon's medical inventions, having just taken a call about a man who had fallen off a ladder and cracked his head open. The machinist said the obvious thing: that could happen to anybody.
The surgeon said there are two rules of life.
Michael, by his own account a covert paramilitary officer several years into a career of very dangerous things, leaned in for wisdom.
"Number one, don't smoke. Number two, don't ride a motorcycle."
That is it. Everything else is rolling the dice. You are going to fall off ladders. Sometimes you fall in the bushes, sometimes you hit your head on a brick. You want to ride in a helicopter? Sometimes it crashes. Ninety nine point nine per cent of the time it is a fun experience.
He uses it as an argument that Bick should go skydiving, which Bick declines flatly. He also, since his own father died of lung cancer after a life of smoking, will not lecture anyone about it, and adds a small detail from prison camp: the constant coughing in the unit sounded like a tuberculosis ward, because nine out of ten people cough every time they hit a vape.
The other tangent, offered and then apologised for, is a generational one. He tries to explain the pre internet and pre cell phone world to a host who genuinely does not remember it. Bick offers the black brick phone with a cord that plugged into the car's cigarette lighter. Then the flip phone. Then smartphones. The guest reaches for The Oregon Trail, a game one step up from Pong, where you made binary decisions until the screen said, with no warning at all, that you had died of dysentery, which sends a nine year old to ask an adult what dysentery is. He also recommends WarGames, the 1983 Matthew Broderick film about a kid who back doors his way into NORAD and starts launching missiles, which he made his sister's family watch recently and which he says holds up.
"All right, go do it, but you're still going to work for us"
By 2008 and 2009 he had had enough of the kinetic life. He is careful not to say he was over it. He was in his thirties, which he calls prime time for the work, and he had moved up the ranks, and he just felt it was time.
He went to his bosses. I think I'm done. I love you guys, I will still support you, I will work behind the scenes as an analyst. He had already been drifting that way when the team was not deployed, and he explains why he was useful there: he is a pattern recognition person and a probability person.
His mentor and boss asked what he wanted to do.
Graduate school and finance.
"All right. Go do it, but you're still going to work for us."
He describes his own reflex at that point in the sentence, and it is a good rule for anyone. "At this point you're like, somebody says something, you just say, tell me more. Because it could be the craziest thing you've ever heard and it happens and it comes true and it's a real thing."
The graduate school choice came off the radio. He listened to NPR every day, at a time he describes as when it was very neutral and a very good news resource, and the sponsor spots kept telling him that Emory had the sixth best MBA programme in the world. He was sceptical, checked, and found that it was ranked there at the time. It was an executive programme, nights and weekends, so he could keep working.
The reasoning behind the degree is the least glamorous thing in the interview and the most practical. He did not want mutual funds and buy and hold. He wanted the alternative space: trading, derivatives, real hedge funds, at a time when hedge funds, private equity and venture capital were not yet everyday vocabulary. "I'm a sprinter, not a marathoner." And Goldman Sachs does not knock on the door for a Mississippi State undergraduate no matter how good the grades were.
But he could not do that and also kick in doors and run chalks and do close quarters battle for two weeks at a time. His boss agreed, and moved him.
"We're going to move you over, basically, to the Directorate of Operations. You're going to be effectively a spy. And you're not just going to be a case officer, because you didn't go to the Farm and you're not directly with CIA. You don't have a badge that says CIA on it. You're a contractor. So that's even better. You're going to be a NOC."
What a NOC actually is
He knew what it was, and his explanation of it is the clearest short definition of the concept you will hear.
An officer under official cover works out of an embassy. The station is based there and there is a chief of station who is the boss, and the officers under him go out and recruit assets. On paper, though, you are something else. Director of agricultural affairs for the American mission in Lithuania, say. You have a business card with the seal of the United States of America on it. You work for the United States.
If you get caught, you say, wait a minute, I work for the United States, call my boss. And they do. And you get a very hard scolding and get handed back to the Americans and deported. He describes the unspoken agreement underneath that with real affection for the absurdity of it: they know you are CIA, and you know they know, "we know we're all doing this, so we know you're breaking the rules and doing some really shifty things, but we know that's part of the game of the world that we live in. So we're really pissed off, but we're going to let this one slide. Just don't ever do it again."
A NOC has none of that. A NOC is just a person with a job.
"If any NOC gets caught, you're done. You're cooked. I can't say, no, call the embassy, this is all a huge misunderstanding, I'm the director of agriculture. They're going to be like, who the hell is Michael Wayne? We don't know who you're talking about. And then whoever, name the country, comes back to you and goes, they don't know you. And you say, crap. And then you're up shit creek."
The trade offs run the other way too. No bureaucracy. No fifteen signatures. You still get the gadgets. You are still read in on operations.
Official cover
Non official cover
Where you sit
Inside an embassy, under a chief of station
Nowhere. You are a hedge fund manager who travels
What your card says
United States of America, with the seal on it
Your own company
If you are caught
Scolded, handed back, deported
"We don't know who you're talking about"
Bureaucracy
Signatures, findings, red tape
Almost none
Access
Recruit an asset who works at the sovereign wealth fund
Walk into the sovereign wealth fund and ask the questions yourself
Who knows
The station, the embassy, the paperwork
Nobody. Not investors, not family, not friends
Figure 3. The two kinds of cover as he describes them. The whole appeal of the second column is the last two rows, and so is the whole exposure.
The hedge fund that was also the cover
This is the part of the story that most needs stating plainly, because everything downstream depends on it: the hedge fund was real.
He ran a legitimate fund. He created derivatives. He says he made a lot of people a great deal of money. His investors had no idea he was a NOC and he expects the ones who watch this to be surprised, and then to be fine about it, because they made money. He ran it right up until he was convicted.
What made it perfect cover is that a hedge fund manager has a reason to travel the world and talk to money: investors, directors of sovereign wealth funds, people in government, retirement funds, family offices. And more than that, he could ask the questions directly.
"I could go into those same meetings and ask those questions instead of having to recruit you, who works for the sovereign wealth fund, to spy on the government for me. I can just go in and ask the same questions, because I'm a hedge fund manager and I want to know that stuff for my investment, for your investment, for the decisions that I make."
They could not tell whether he needed the answers to make money or not, and it made complete sense that he was asking. It also, he says, gave him entrée to meet the people he wanted to take down: rat lines, arms proliferation, human trafficking, drugs.
He also gives the actual numbers of the business, which is unusual candour for someone in his position.
There were two funds. The first launched in 2009, straight out of the financial crisis, and used a contrarian strategy built on mean reversion, fractal maths and Fibonacci based indicators to find inflection points, trading the S&P 500 as one aggregate along with the E-mini futures contract. Average returns over fifty per cent net a year. He is not shy about what that means: "you're in the hedge fund hall of fame for that." It was also brutally volatile, up twenty per cent one month and down fifteen the next. The wins outpaced the losses and the volatility turned people's stomachs.
He knew within months that volatility, not performance, was the thing investors could not swallow, and he says he should have pivoted earlier. He did not, because he had his own money in it and fifty per cent returns compound. "The greatest force in the universe is compound interest."
There is a lovely, self aware passage about why the fund never got big, and it is a lesson about language rather than finance. Options are described in Greek, so you end up saying things like: we have a competitive advantage because the gammas affect the deltas, and we neutralise the deltas because we do levered ratio calendar verticals, and we hedge that with E-minis on the near date expiration. The investor says that sounds like you have it nailed, leaves the room, and asks their colleague what he just said. Then they write a twenty million dollar cheque to a manager who says we are going long Google and short Apple and here is why, because the investor has an iPhone and uses Google a hundred times a day and can repeat that argument to an investment committee tomorrow. He offered to talk to the committees himself. Most firms do not let fund managers into those meetings.
The second fund, launched in 2016 and more New York focused, was the institutional answer: far lower volatility, around twenty per cent a year, which is still exceptional. He explains why that is the more attractive product with a genuinely good argument about portfolio construction. When the market falls thirty per cent, you want a slice of your portfolio that is flat or up, and his was up. In a year when the market rose twenty per cent and he made twenty per cent, investors shrugged and called him average. He calls it singles and doubles, consistently, with very few strikeouts.
Assets under management averaged over a hundred million dollars across the two funds. And he cares, specifically, that some of that money belonged to teachers. Both his parents started as teachers. Both his sisters have taught, one still does. Managing retirement money for teachers' unions, so those funds could pay out in ten years, was the part of the job he liked saying out loud.
In the same period he added a master's degree from Cambridge, a programme at Oxford, and a nonprofit.
Oasis, and friendship bracelets
The nonprofit grew out of a society he started at Cambridge. In the United States it became Oasis, which he says stands for the Organization for Active Social Impact and Sustainability, an acronym he admits he almost never says out loud in full and nearly butchers on camera.
Oasis does disaster relief. Tornado, wildfire, hurricane: they are among the first boots on the ground. And here he introduces the framework the last third of the interview keeps returning to, which he calls Stormcraft: a doctrine for operating in chaos that he says he developed in the intelligence world after 2001.
His description of arriving twenty minutes after a tornado is a good argument for why the two worlds transfer. It is very similar to a war zone. This house is gone, the house across the street is untouched. People are wandering down the street because their home no longer exists, and nobody knows where they go, what they do or what is coming next.
"I want to be the one that's there on those people's worst days, because I can help them better than most people, because I have a game plan to manage this chaos and to see the advantages that it presents us."
Then Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, right after the Winter Olympics, and natural disasters became man made ones.
His fundraiser is called Kids Helping Ukraine, and it is still running: groups of children across Ukraine make thousands of friendship bracelets in the colours of the Ukrainian flag, which are then sold. He notes, with obvious pleasure, that those colours are also the colours of the Naval Academy, of his high school and of Emory.
Ukraine, in both hats
He went over in March 2022, a couple of weeks after the invasion, by himself and without making a thing of it, and then built a fundraising campaign around it.
The logistics problem he describes is the reason the whole story happens. The airspace was Russian controlled, so nothing could be flown in. Supplies had to be parked in a neighbouring country, which in practice meant Poland, and he set up a home base in Krakow, the nearest big city to the border. Rail was unreliable because the Russians were bombing the lines to an extent. So it moved by road, in cargo vans and trucks, on surfaces he compares to the moon.
The local name for it is the Ukrainian milkshake, because the potholes are so deep that whatever you are carrying is going to get shaken up, and, not exaggerating, you feel like the vehicle is going to flip.
He describes a genuinely strange feature of the early war, which is that because the Russians expected to take the country in a couple of weeks they initially did not target infrastructure. So you could be in a trench on the front line under artillery fire with a working cell signal, watching a podcast. Gas stations worked. The nuclear plants that power not only Ukraine but large parts of Europe kept running. Later came the drones and rockets against civilians, which he says continues: a headline in the morning saying five hundred Russian drones attacked Kyiv and eight people are dead, and those are civilians, flown into apartment buildings.
He built a pipeline running from the Polish border all the way across the country to the east, and ran it overtly, as his nonprofit. There is no ambiguity in how he presents this: this was not agency work.
Then he was tapped, and the two hats came back.
By his account he was asked to shepherd not just his nonprofit's humanitarian supplies but United States donated supplies and equipment for the Ukrainian defence, from body armour up to heavy equipment and down to medicine, defibrillators and tourniquets. The humanitarian side was overt. His role in the other side was covert. He was also, he says, training soldiers and volunteers, which he notes is not secret because there are photographs of him doing it online.
The convoys went both ways. Supplies in, women and children out. Civilians still live on the front line, and he is even handed about why people stay until a bomb lands across the street and suddenly they do not. He says they evacuated hundreds of women and children to Lviv and safer parts of Ukraine, then into Poland, and from there to Germany and the United States. "I'm very proud of that."
He was running the hedge fund at the same time, from six or seven hours ahead. He would start at three or four in the afternoon local time and work until ten or eleven at night. The structure of the strategy made that possible: it was a sniper strategy, not high frequency, closer to one step off it. He would put ten or twenty per cent of the fund at risk in a single trade, hold for minutes or hours or at most about four days, then exit or let it expire. The rest of the time the fund was fully hedged or in cash, and he was in cash roughly half the time, which meant he could be anywhere in the world for a day or a week or a month without worrying about it.
Chapter one of the book he is writing, he says, is about the day he and a group of American civilian volunteers almost got caught by Russians. The volunteers knew nothing about his other life and only worked out afterwards how close they had come. Technically they would not have been prisoners of war, being civilians. They would have been detained, possibly sent to Russia, and might still be there. He mentions that a Marine had just been released after four years in Russian custody on an espionage accusation that he says nobody is really sure about, because sometimes they simply take you.
The warehouses
Then the turn.
"In that role I saw a lot of corruption."
He is careful to draw a line between the corruption he had spent his whole career walking past and this. You see corruption everywhere in intelligence work, he says, but rarely is any of it directly harming people. The things he was responsible for delivering were things people needed to stay alive, civilians and soldiers and volunteers.
What he says he saw was diversion. Not everything. A warehouse full of supplies would disappear while the other three stayed put, with the implication that he could take from those and not worry about this one.
"Well, I am worried about this one, because they're waiting on me to show up with ten trucks. And if I show up with six, they're going to think we can't rely on you. And worse, they're going to think I've done something with the other four."
And then the sentence that separates this from ordinary graft: "It's like, people are going to die if this stuff doesn't get there. And that bothers me a hell of a lot."
So he protested. And here is where he identifies his own mistake precisely, because he understands the difference his position made. He had protested before, in covert roles, and been told where to go, and he had held his ground and won those arguments because he was the one going to the front lines and they were not. This time he was overt. He was visible. He was not bound by a non disclosure agreement in that role. And, he says, the people he was upsetting were Americans who were supposed to be there helping.
"He's not Omar stealing from drug dealers and selling it back to drug dealers. He's stealing from the United States Treasury and from United States citizens and other people in the Western world who had donated their hard earned money to help people."
The escalation, as he tells it, went in three stages: you need to do this with us or shut up; then you need to shut up or you are going to be sorry; and then two intelligence colleagues, separately, coming to him and saying, what is this I am hearing.
His answer to the first was, in substance: you cannot pull rank on me, there is no rank here, I am the equivalent of a GS-15 level operator, and you are actively stealing donations from the United States of America.
And he is precise, twice, about a line he says he never crossed. He was not going to blow the whistle. "I'm not a rat." Even about people he considered dirt bags stealing aid, he wanted them stopped, he pressed hard for them to stop, and he was not going to expose them or anything adjacent to national secrets.
The problem was that nobody upstream knew that.
A thousand white marbles
Before he says who came after him, he gives his theory of the world, and he prefaces it with the best epistemics in the interview.
"If I throw a thousand white marbles on this table and I tell you one white marble is a pearl, but they all look exactly alike, good luck finding the white marble. That's the real thing that's going on, the pearl. And the other nine hundred and ninety nine are marbles. They're conspiracy theories that don't amount to anything."
That is not a defence of conspiracy theories. It is an argument that the volume of bad ones is functionally protective, because it makes the real thing unfindable, and therefore doable.
His own version of the pearl, offered as a peek from a distance and with an explicit caveat that he does not want to go too deep because he does not want to go back to prison: the world is influenced by a small number of very powerful groups, not one. Very wealthy, mostly men, a few women, plus what he calls fringe participants, thought leaders, intellectuals, founders working on something that might benefit the people in the group. These groups sit above borders and flags and move pieces.
The historical analogy he reaches for is the city states. The Venetians against Florence against Milan against Rome, and further back the Greek city states, enemies one year and allied the next because a bigger threat arrived. Shifting alliances, based on advantage rather than ideology, and above the level of hate or revenge. Losing a hundred billion dollars to a rival annoys you, but not enough to break the arrangement, because the arrangement is bigger than you and you will make it back on the next deal.
He is at pains to say it is not the cartoon. "It's not like these rich fat cats just trying to make a buck. It's not that at all. That's an element of it." His reasoning is functional rather than charitable: if they were purely self interested, society would crumble, and they need the society.
And then the operational conclusion. "When you piss one of those groups off, there are consequences. I did not realise that I pissed one of those groups off. And I should have, I guess, in hindsight."
Three options
What he says he learned afterwards, from two separate very senior intelligence colleagues who came to him individually, is that his case had been discussed and worked through as a problem with options.
Option one: kill him. He is on the front lines, doing things with Ukrainians that could plausibly get him killed anyway.
He says that option was rejected, and he uses it as a defence of the institution he served. "No, let's not do that. We don't kill Americans. And that's true." The exception he acknowledges is the American who becomes a sworn enemy of the country, which he says has happened over the years. But if you are still on the side of good, the intelligence community is not going to kill you, and if it has ever happened he has not known about it.
He states the other half of the same principle in the same breath, and it is worth keeping because it is the kind of claim that is easy to check against the last two decades of public reporting and hard to check in his particular case: the two things they do not do are kill their own and spy on Americans the way they spy on people in other countries. Is there metadata? Are there ways? Yes. But if you are being watched as an American, he says, it is not the CIA, it is one of the other seventeen agencies.
Bick says, deadpan: "It's Apple."
He does not entirely disagree, and pivots to the FBI, where his real complaint is structural rather than personal. The Bureau's job is not to prevent, it is to arrest. There are good agents and bad agents, but the incentive is to let the bad thing happen so there is a case. Intelligence does the opposite: you are building a bomb in your basement, we are taking you out before it exists. In America that means SWAT or local police, and yes, maybe the FBI, but only once there is enough to charge.
Option two: brand him a traitor working for the Russians and let the Ukrainians deal with him.
That one, he says, died fast, because he had done far too much visible work with Ukrainians against Russians for the story to survive contact with anyone who knew him.
Option three: what does he do when he is not in Ukraine? He runs a hedge fund.
"Oh, well. That's a no brainer. Go get it. He works in finance. He's probably committed seven felonies while we've been having this conversation."
He is quick to say that is not a confession. It is a reference to the argument in Three Felonies a Day, whose author's name he cannot recall on camera, that federal law is so vague and so layered that ordinary people break it constantly without doing anything wrong. He applies it to finance and, feelingly, to medicine: obey this regulation strictly and you are by default breaking that one. His image for how it got that way is a building with thirty seven fire escapes, where each new one added by a well meaning committee turns an older one into a fire trap.
The word he says was used for what they wanted done to him is defanging.
"It's like the fangs of a snake. Take the fangs out of a snake, the snake's harmless. We need you to ruin this guy's reputation, so if he blows the whistle nobody's going to believe him. Brand him a liar, find something on him, convict him, get him to plead, whatever you need to do, do it, before this guy blows the whistle."
He repeats, flatly: he had no intention of blowing the whistle. They did not know that.
Twelve years of clean examinations, and then a target letter
The regulatory history he gives is specific, and it is the closest thing in the interview to a testable claim.
He held Series 3 and Series 65 licences and was a registered investment adviser. Between launching the first fund in 2009 and 2020, the SEC examined the fund three times, which he describes as entirely normal for a fund performing that well. "Make sure you're not Bernie Madoff. Make sure you're not just making up returns and pocketing all this money."
He spent heavily on the infrastructure a much larger fund would have: third party administrators, a big four accounting firm for the audits, top tier brokers, all of it in place even when he was running twenty million dollars, which in that industry he calls a lemonade stand.
An examination is still miserable, and his description of why is useful for anyone who has never been on the receiving end of a federal request for information. A subpoena from the SEC sounds terrifying, has the seal at the top, and is really a request for documents. It takes the government a few minutes to issue. It costs the recipient fifty thousand dollars in legal fees at the drop of a hat, plus every email, statement, brokerage record and trade, Bates stamped and submitted properly, because doing it yourself means making a mistake they can use. He calls the whole disclosure open kimono.
"It's not to help people prove they're innocent. It's to find guilty people. And if they're on the fringe and they need a few more scalps on the wall that month to hit their quota, this guy's probably guilty."
They never found anything. Three inquiries over twelve years, all cleared. He notes that the SEC often does not extend the courtesy of telling you it is over. Sometimes you get a no action letter, which never says congratulations, only that they did not find anything this time. He is fair about the principle: if you are not speeding you do not mind a police car behind you. Then he offers the Warren Buffett line he attributes explicitly as Buffett's, not his: if a cop follows you for two hundred miles, you are going to get a ticket, because eventually you drift a mile over or touch the line. His own view is stricter. "If you never do anything, you should never get a ticket, unless you got a dirty cop."
In December 2020 a new inquiry opened. New subpoena, all the information again, and now the lawyer costs seventy thousand rather than fifty, because legal fees do not track inflation. He thought nothing of it beyond the expense.
Then the timeline he lays out is the spine of his entire argument, and it is worth reading as a sequence:
December 2020: new SEC inquiry opens. He complies.
Through 2021 and into 2022: his lawyer, who went to law school with someone on the SEC side, checks in every few months. The answer is always the same. Send us updated information. Which means more emails, more statements, more trades, more Bates stamping, more billing. Then nothing happens.
After about a year: they stop responding entirely. He and his lawyer conclude it is over, as previous inquiries had quietly ended.
February 2022: Russia invades Ukraine. March 2022: he goes over.
Late 2022 into early 2023: he sees the diversion and protests, repeatedly, in an overt role.
Spring 2023: after more than two years of silence, a target letter arrives from the SEC. The inquiry has been escalated to an investigation.
His reaction to the letter is the obvious one, and it is a fair question. "These guys haven't been around for over two years, and suddenly they're saying I'm breaking the law. What have they been doing for two years? If I'm breaking the law, why have they not kicked in the door and shut me down?"
And right on its heels came the Department of Justice, which is where it stopped being about money and licences and became criminal.
He says the parallel investigation framing is fiction. "They weren't running in parallel. None of this came out of that. All of this came straight from my Ukraine work. Some very powerful people called some very, very powerful people in the US government and said, we need you to find something on this guy."
They could not touch the fund, so they took the management company
He hired more lawyers, including former prosecutors, and ended up with six on the case over time, four or five active at any moment.
Then he found out what they were actually charging, and it was not the hedge fund.
They wanted the fund, he says. They looked at it. They could not make anything work, for exactly the reason he had spent a decade paying for: too many checks and balances. The accounting was outsourced. The brokerage was outsourced. The audits were outsourced. He never touched anyone's money. An investor who wants a redemption sends the request to the administrator, who is an accountant, and the accountant wires the money. All he did was make trades.
"There's no way for me to steal money. You can thank Bernie Madoff for that. Before Bernie Madoff, it was a whole different story."
So the case landed on the management company instead. He had founded High Guard Capital in 2016 on a straightforward startup logic: raise a runway, target around three million dollars, buy two or three years of losses while you build. He is careful with the general claim and hedges it himself: most startups lose money for the first two or three years and do not really turn a profit until year five, on average, and that average may be tech skewed, and most companies simply go out of business.
The structural analogy he gives is a good one. Think of Vanguard, Fidelity, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan. Those are management companies. Underneath them sit the funds. High Guard was the management company. The hedge fund sat underneath it. The ambition was multiple funds, and eventually to be one of those names.
The total alleged amount, after all of it, was about 2.8 million dollars.
He wants that number understood, and he is neither minimising nor pretending it is trivial. It is not twenty eight million, or two hundred and eighty million, or 2.8 billion. It is 2.8 million, which is real money and, in the world he worked in, "a good week of dinners at Goldman Sachs, and maybe a few private jet rides."
He is also sardonic about how such numbers get set at all, and reaches for the Medicare fraud defendants he later met in prison, men who admitted guilt and whose restitution figures had been multiplied out of every prescription into something absurd. "Think of a number between one and a zillion and somebody goes thirty thousand two hundred and fifty seven hundred and forty three, and they go, done. Let's go after him for that."
And then the detail he keeps coming back to as evidence, which is about who showed up rather than what they alleged. The prosecution came out of Washington. Not Atlanta, where he had lived and where the SEC file started. Not Miami, where he was living. Not New York. Not Mississippi. Washington, where he had never lived or worked or had any business, and specifically the units he describes as the A team, the group that took down Enron and WorldCom, with the FBI's Washington field office alongside.
"2.8 million dollars, alleged fraud scheme, where they admitted on day one no money was missing. So if no money's missing, what's the crime?"
The venue was stranger still. He was prosecuted out of the Southern District of Ohio, in Columbus, a place whose only prior role in his life was that he had once been to see the Ohio State campus. He says the reason given was that Citibank, where he and his funds banked, had servers in that district, so money had moved through them. He also says the district had a reputation for punishing white collar defendants, which is why it was chosen.
He then adds, without needing to, that it turned out to be a piece of luck. "My judge turned out to be great."
The reverse proffer
The lawyers asked for a reverse proffer, and he explains the term for anyone who does not know it, which is characteristic of the whole interview.
It is a listening exercise. Not an argument, not a negotiation. You sit down with Department of Justice attorneys and they tell you every crime they intend to charge and every way they intend to put you behind bars for the maximum possible time. In his case the maximum was twenty years. His lawyer's read was that they show you eighty or ninety per cent of it and hold some back.
He drove to Washington because he likes road trips, past the monuments, and he describes the change in what those monuments meant to him on that particular drive. He had always loved the history. This time he was thinking, what kind of country do I live in where they are coming after me, and what kind of mistake are they making here, and we are going to clear this up today.
The room was not impressive. A nondescript building a few blocks from everything, a rundown office with cubicles, worn carpet and upholstery coming off the chairs in a tired boardroom. "I can understand why these people are miserable. If I had to come to work here every day, I would be miserable too."
Four or five DOJ attorneys. The FBI agent, who he says turned out to be a total piece of work. And a prop, which he found so absurd he had to bite his tongue: a stack of legal books two or three feet high, twice the thickness of a phone book, which at one point one of the attorneys patted, as if to say, this is what we are going to throw at you.
The first thing the lead prosecutor said, before anything else, is the sentence the rest of the story hangs on.
"We know you didn't steal any money. We know all the money is accounted for. But you know, you're still going down."
Then came about thirty allegations delivered off a PowerPoint that his lawyers were not given a copy of, so they had to absorb it by taking notes. And his internal commentary was not fear, it was contempt. You switched banks. You had multiple brokerage accounts. You had this and you had that.
"Well, of course I did. That's a good fiduciary. You have multiple brokerage accounts because ten or twelve years ago brokerages went out of business overnight and people's money got frozen. You need a backup plan."
He walked out smiling and said something out loud that he says he has never said before or since: guys, we have nothing to worry about, this is going to be fun. He wanted to embarrass them. He wanted them to lose their jobs. "Their biggest guns were slingshots you make out of a paper clip and a rubber band in study hall."
Both of his lawyers, both former prosecutors, said: not so fast.
By the time they had finished one drink at a hotel down the street, they were telling him to settle. And they gave him the reason, which is the part of the interview most worth reading for anyone who has never watched this machine work.
They laid out the case the government would actually make, which had almost nothing to do with the facts and everything to do with the audience. This will be a rich, white, fat cat Wall Street hedge fund manager, on trial in Columbus, in front of a jury with no hedge fund managers on it, because there are almost none in Ohio and the few there are would be struck. The jurors will be bus drivers, cafeteria workers, business owners. Smart people. People who have no reason to know what any of this means.
And then the killer example. The government stands up and says: he had an offshore fund. The jury hears something sinister. In reality every hedge fund has one, because that is how you accept money from nonprofits and investors outside the country. It is not merely legal, it is required in order to stay legal. He says there were a dozen things like that.
He countered with everything he had. He has studied behavioural psychology. He had spent fifteen or twenty years being trained in how to move people. And his conclusion after hearing the government's playbook was, in his own word, that their game plan was pretty good. His lawyers agreed. "They've been working on it for a hundred years."
Could he testify?
"If you testify, they're going to make you look like you killed Abraham Lincoln and JFK and that you're stealing babies. No, you can't testify."
The line one of his lawyers had given him earlier, before any of this, is the one that turned out to be right.
"When the justice system of the most powerful country in the world wants to screw you, you're going to get screwed. It's just a matter of how bad it's going to be."
He had not believed it. He recites what he had believed instead, and it is worth quoting because it is the actual thesis of the interview and of the years since. He had taken a bullet for this country. He had put his life on the line for decades. He had stayed single, never married, no children, no tattoos, because of what he had chosen. And beyond his own service: "We don't live in a country where the justice system turns on its own citizens. That's what they do in the countries that I'm trying to take down. That's what the bad guys do."
"Well, yes it is."
The threats
Three things closed the decision, and he lists them without theatre.
First, he learned who was behind it, in the summer of 2023. He does not name anyone. His reaction, verbatim, was one syllable repeated.
Second, the trial penalty. His lawyers told him plainly that if he fought and lost he would not get two years, he would get around twelve. "You get taxed. You get penalised for fighting it."
Third, and decisively, his family. His mother had died of a stroke in early 2022, which is part of why he had felt able to be so overt in Ukraine in the first place: his sisters could handle it, but he would not have wanted his mother carrying it. His father had died when he was twenty. What was left were two sisters and a group of civilian volunteers who had nothing to do with any of it.
He says the DOJ threatened, in back channel conversations, to go after both. Your sister does this, your other sister does that, one of them is in the public eye, we will find something, we can spin something, and we have done it before, as your lawyers have told you. And the volunteers too, people whose only involvement was trying to help.
He does not present this as unique to him. Every white collar defendant he knows had family threatened, whether they fought or pled. He gives an example from prison: a man whose wife was in another prison because he fought the case. She had done nothing. He told her to fight. Then she was indicted too.
So he pled. And he is unambiguous about the mechanics of that decision. It was not remorse and it was not, in his mind, guilt. It was arithmetic under duress, made by someone who says he spent a career making decisions under duress. "It was ultimately sort of a business decision. It was a life decision, but the most efficient decision."
Points on a chart
The plea itself, he says, was not negotiated. He is proud of being a good negotiator and had assumed he would negotiate. His lawyers told him immediately that this was not a negotiation. They could ask, they could elbow him in the ribs, come on, it is only two million dollars.
The mechanism he describes is the federal sentencing guidelines as they land on a defendant: a matrix, a chart, where every element adds points. You used a computer, two points. It was over a million dollars, sixteen points. This, that, and a list of nitpicking additions. Your total finds a row. Your criminal history finds a column. The intersection gives a recommended range. The judge is not bound by any of it and can go to the floor or the ceiling.
His points came out at a range whose bottom was two years and nine months, and the government agreed in writing to argue for the low end. He was pleased. He thought he could turn 2.75 years into zero, given the Naval Academy, the care of his dying mother, the business he had saved, the evacuations from Ukraine.
His lawyer said: you are going to prison for at least two and a half years, get your head right.
Then the presentence report came back, and the number changed.
Figure 4. The exposure ladder, using the numbers he gives on camera. The government asked for the six and a half year figure at sentencing. The extra day on the one year sentence is the whole point of the next section.
The PSR
He instructed his lawyers to ask for zero. Probation. Nothing.
Then, he says, they back doored him. The presentence investigation report came back with additional enhancements added to the guideline calculation, and two years and nine months became a minimum of six and a half, with a top around nine. The government still agreed to argue for the low end of the new range, which meant they would be asking for six and a half years.
His description of who writes that document is worth pausing on. The investigators who produce PSRs are not lawyers. He is not even sure who they work for. What he says happened is that the DOJ handed them a list of enhancements to add.
He was furious, and he says the obvious thing out loud: "If I knew it was going to be six and a half years, I never would have pled guilty."
The document itself he treats as the single most consequential piece of paper in a defendant's life, and this is the most practically useful passage in the whole five and a half hours for anyone facing federal charges.
"The PSR is by far, for anybody facing this now, the most important document of your life until you are off supervised release and maybe even beyond that."
Everybody reads it. The judge reads it. The prosecution reads it and has had a hand in creating it. If you go to prison, your case manager reads it, and possibly your unit manager. Your probation officer on supervised release reads it. It is the first impression every one of those people forms of you. So prepare for the interview. He says he prepared, and thinks he gave a good one.
His own PSR, he says, was riddled with errors. The woman who conducted it had no idea what she was doing and no understanding of finance. At one point the document referred to him as a woman, and with the wrong surname. He concludes she was cutting and pasting from old reports.
Out of that he builds a general theory of institutional decay that is more interesting than a complaint. At the top of the chain, the prosecutors and the FBI agents, he says the dominant motive is not screwing up and getting promoted. Further down the chain, the PSR writers, probation, the Bureau of Prisons, it becomes: what is the smallest amount of work I can do and not get fired.
He also says, repeatedly and specifically, that things were invented. He does not soften it and he does not generalise it into everyone. A lawyer told him so directly.
"Mike, they're going to spin this however they want to spin it to make you look like you killed JFK and that you started COVID. And if they don't think that they have enough, they'll just make some stuff up to throw it in there."
"No freaking way."
"Mike, I've done it. I know they do it. That was my job. That's why I was good at what I do."
And the mechanism the lawyer described is bureaucratic rather than villainous, which is what makes it plausible. The number one rule in a bureaucracy is do not do anything to get fired. Then it becomes: what do I need to do, not to serve justice, but to get promoted. And when the instruction from above is find something on this guy, the sentence that follows it is, if you do not find something, we will find somebody who will.
The final draft of his own rebuttal is a small, very human detail. His lawyer's first version asked for about five and a half years. He was irritated and told him he had said zero. The night before it had to be filed, he relented and said: change zero to six months.
The day he pled, and the press release
The conversation loops here, as it does throughout, and he goes back to the plea itself.
He drove up to Columbus in October 2023 and, in his word, slunk into court alone. No family. No support system. He is single. One of his lawyers was there, he assumes, and he cannot even remember for certain. He went in and pled to one count of wire fraud.
Then he got back in the car and started driving east toward a friend in North Carolina, and probably on to Florida after that. He was living as a nomad by then, having given up the New York apartment when COVID hit the city, spending most of his time in Europe and, when in the States, in extended stay hotels, which are notoriously cheap in Florida out of season.
Nobody knew. He had told nobody. His entire adult life had been in the shadows apart from the fund.
Halfway across Ohio or West Virginia, his phone started blowing up.
It was four or five people, and that was enough. Both sisters, back to back, separately, one in New York and one in Mississippi. A best friend and his wife, independently. Another friend who had sat on his board and who had been interviewed by the SEC, and who had nothing but good things to say.
He describes listening to the voicemails, and this is the passage where the register of the interview changes.
"They were freaking out, dude. I've never heard them sound like that before in my life. They were calling like they were calling someone who was on the ledge of the Empire State Building about to jump. They were crying. Mike, just please call me back. Please call me back. Whatever's happening, it's not that bad."
His first thought was: how do they even know this?
The answer, he says, is that as he walked out of the courtroom the Department of Justice and the SEC issued press releases, and the headline on them said multi million dollar Ponzi scheme. Then, he says, the FBI agent on his case forwarded the release to dozens of people. Not to his sisters. To people in his professional life, including the friend who had been on his board, which is how he found out it had happened at all.
The word Ponzi had never been used once in the entire case. Not in the reverse proffer, where the prosecutor's opening line had been that they knew he had not stolen any money and that it was all accounted for. Not in any correspondence. Nowhere.
He is careful about the legal status of the moment, too. You are not technically a convicted felon until you are sentenced. What was true that day was that he had pled guilty to one count of wire fraud, which he characterises as the catch all. "Wire fraud is just a catch all for any sort of fraud. It's the simplest thing to charge. And it had nothing to do with actually wiring money. It's like postal fraud. If you've ever sent a piece of mail, they could charge you for postal fraud."
His verdict on the agent's action is that it served no purpose of justice whatsoever, and it is the specific grievance that runs through his pardon petition. Not the conviction. The distribution.
He has tried to get the records. He filed Freedom of Information Act requests with the FBI, the DOJ, the SEC and the Bureau of Prisons. One came back with an estimate that it would take seven and a half years to fulfil, for a case that ran less than a year and concerned 2.8 million dollars. He has received nothing from anyone. About a week before the interview he got an email saying it had been over a year since he filed, asking whether he was still interested, and telling him to reply to a different address from the one it came from.
"That's like being on hold with AT&T for a day, and then they come on and go, hey, are you still good to be on hold, or don't you really want to hang up right now?"
Falling on his sword
From the plea to the sentencing was six months, and in that window he said nothing to anyone, which he explains as the only rational play available.
"The quickest way to get six and a half years turned into twenty years is to say I'm innocent, I didn't do anything, but you pled guilty."
So he fell on his sword. When people reached out, he told them he could not talk about it and that there was more to the story and he would tell them at some point. This included investors whom he says the FBI had completely convinced that he had stolen their money.
Bick raises a live comparison: Bryan Kohberger trying to withdraw a guilty plea. The guest, who had thrown the same idea at his own lawyer two or three times in fury over the press releases and the added enhancements, agrees it is a bad move.
The sentencing hearing
Sentencing was in March or April 2024, in a district he had been told was notorious for hammering white collar defendants, with a guideline floor of six and a half years and a lawyer telling him to expect at least five.
Two things happened that he did not expect.
The first is that the judge would not let anyone speak for him. Not one supporting witness. The reasoning, never said out loud in court, was that the judge had heard it all before and knew what they would say, so it would save everybody time. But the door was open the other way. Anyone who wanted to call him a criminal could come forward.
Two of his investors in the management company did. They were, until that day, close friends. He had invited friends and family who could afford it into that company specifically because he expected to make them rich.
They told the court he had stolen their money. One called him a mini Madoff.
He sat there thinking, that is not true, that is not true, that is not true. Nowhere in the case had anyone alleged a Ponzi scheme or personal use of investor money.
And then the judge interrupted.
"Wait a minute. What are you saying?"
He stole my money. He did this. He is a mini Madoff.
"You're saying that he lined his own pockets with your money?"
"Yeah."
"Okay. Continue."
He took that exchange as a sign that the judge understood exactly what was happening.
Then he stood for allocution, which he can never quite remember the word for, and Bick cannot either. He apologised. He said he had brought shame on his family. He listed what he had been: a volunteer, someone helping people in Ukraine, someone running a good fund, someone who had gone back to Mississippi for months to help care for his mother.
There is a note of genuine reckoning in this part, and it is not about the law. He had thought of the whole thing as landing entirely on him, because he has no wife and no children. He calls that naive. "The frag radius is to my sisters and to my extended family." He lost a lot of friends, simply because people do not want anything to do with a convicted felon. And nobody got the real story until after sentencing, because he could not tell it.
He also notes what did not happen: no reporter ever called. No investigation, not even from his hometown paper. The only things in the world were the two press releases, which he characterises as one article regurgitated, and which he assesses as roughly seventy per cent false, twenty nine per cent true but not illegal, and about one per cent something like the truth.
The judge's statement
The judge took a break of about an hour, and he believes he went back and reread the PSR and the support letters. He had also shown up to court with about a million dollars that his lawyers had not got hold of yet, and turned it over. He thinks that landed. The judge said something to the effect that it was unusual, because when there is a Ponzi scheme there is no money left, it has gone on the yachts and the trips to Vegas.
Then came the speech, which he obtained the transcript of as soon as it was available, specifically to have it.
The judge, who is in his eighties, said he had served on the bench for more than thirty years and that this was the most unusual wire fraud case he had ever seen. And then, close to verbatim in the guest's telling:
"This was not a Ponzi scheme. This defendant did not line his own pockets with the victim's money."
He describes his own reaction with a comic honesty that is one of the best moments in the interview. The speech opened with the parts a defendant dreads, that justice must be served and the punishment must fit the crime, and he thought, oh crap. Then it turned. "At first I was like, oh my God, shut up. And then he kept talking. I was like, say more. Keep talking."
For a moment he genuinely thought the six and a half years was about to become zero, which he says was exactly what he had planned.
A year and a day
Then the judge gave him a year and a day, against a government request for six and a half years.
His sister was in court and did not understand. Most people hear a year and a day as a small extra insult, one more day for the felon.
It is the opposite, and this is the single most practically useful fact in the interview. A sentence of exactly one year sits inside a threshold. A sentence of a year and one day sits outside it, which makes the defendant eligible for good conduct credit and for the First Step Act earned time credits to apply. Sentenced to one year, he would have served nearly the whole year. Sentenced to a year and one day, he served six months.
"For people that know, they know that's a great sentence. That's about as good as it's going to get if you don't have the judge's son tied up in a basement somewhere."
The six months should have been five. The Bureau of Prisons simply did not get around to it. Then two weeks in a halfway house, which should have been a day or two, but the halfway house had changed managers and instituted a two week minimum because two weeks is a good number. His sister's home had already been inspected and approved. Then two weeks of home confinement. Then supervised release, which he is still on.
He reported in August 2024.
What he actually pled to
The most important part of the case is also the part he tells last, and it takes some patience to follow, which is itself the point.
The charge was not about the hedge fund. It was about one conversation with one investor in the management company.
Here is the structure. In hedge funds, size attracts size, and a lot of what he managed sat in separately managed accounts rather than inside the fund itself, which meant he earned fees on it without it counting toward assets in the fund. He wanted money in the fund, because money attracts money.
So he had brought in what the industry calls a seed or accelerator investor: a company that put in a large sum, in his case around fifteen to twenty million dollars, for a fixed term, usually two or three years, in exchange for a slice of the fees the manager earns. At the end of the term the seed investor withdraws the capital and keeps the fee split as a long term dividend. He is emphatic that this is done many times a year, is extremely common, and is entirely legal.
Separately, a new investor came into the management company, roughly six months before the seed investor's term was due to end.
He says he told her about it. He remembers the conversation clearly, and the reason he remembers it is a beautifully specific human detail: it happened during a snowstorm, in Mississippi, where snowstorms essentially do not happen, and she lived in Mississippi. He says he told her the assets under management figure, told her the seed company was scheduled to pull its twenty million, and told her he was going to try to talk them out of it. He notes it was not a company killer either way. Painful, not fatal.
In a deposition after the first target letter, he was asked whether he had told her. He said yes. They asked whether he could prove it. He could not.
His lawyer then spoke to her. Her answer, which he does not treat as malicious, is the pivot of the entire prosecution.
"I remember the conversation, but I don't remember what we talked about."
His response to that is the most human argument in the interview, and Bick, who has been through his own version of it, finishes the thought with him. Do you remember a conversation you had three years ago, with one person, about an investment they were considering and might or might not have made? You would have to record every conversation you have, which is technically possible now, or write notes immediately afterwards and send them to the other person for confirmation, which would mean spending half your life in conversations and the other half documenting them so you do not go to prison a decade later.
So that is what he pled to. Not stealing. Not a scheme. Failing to disclose that a large investor was leaving, in a conversation he says he had and cannot document.
"I had disclosed it. I just didn't document it. And as any white collar felon will tell you, if you don't document it, you're wrong, or it's illegal."
His reasoning for accepting it was risk assessment rather than conscience. If she does not remember, and they put her on the stand, and she does not remember, he could see how that gets spun in front of a confused jury as a material non disclosure. Add the threats and who was behind it, and the arithmetic was done.
He also notes what nobody ever did to him, and it is a fair question to leave hanging. He was never indicted. No agents outside his house. No cars. The business was never shut down. Nothing of his was ever seized. Nothing of the fund's was ever seized. He kept managing money until he closed the fund himself on 31 December 2023, after he had pled guilty, because he knew he was going to prison. He redeemed everyone and sent all the money back. Every investor in the hedge fund made money.
"If somebody's committed fraud for a multi million dollar Ponzi scheme, as the headline said, why would you let this guy keep managing money? Why wouldn't you seize everything that he has, especially when it's other people's money still sitting in those accounts?"
The management company died, though. It had been valued at seventy million dollars. It went to zero, and the friends and family he had brought into it lost what they had put in, which is the loss he seems least able to talk his way around.
"Mission accomplished. United States of America."
Montgomery
He served at Federal Prison Camp Montgomery in Alabama, a minimum security camp on an Air Force base. Bick, who went from a low security facility to a camp himself, recognises the place immediately.
He never saw bars. He never saw handcuffs. He was never strip searched. The physical setting he describes as genuinely beautiful: a campus, tucked into a corner of the base, a golf course on one side, a river a hundred feet below a bluff on another, buildings and then the free world on the other two. No fences. You could walk off. You would pay for it, and they would find you quickly.
"It could have been a great place for rehabilitation for people who needed it."
His complaint is not about the conditions of confinement in the usual sense. It is about neglect and about the staff. The camp had not been maintained in years, and he compares it to a summer camp left to rot for fifteen years. The people working there he describes, without hedging, as among the laziest and most sadistic he has encountered in a working environment.
He also punctures the standard idea of what a camp is for. Camps are supposed to be about re entry, and their population is supposed to be white collar. His camp held about seven hundred and fifty people, of whom about twenty were white collar. Everybody else had worked their way down from higher security: drugs, guns, methamphetamine, men who had been inside for a decade and genuinely needed guidance about what the outside now looks like. That, he says, is what the camp should have been providing and did not.
And he is honest about the other side of it. There were people at that camp doing more crime inside than they had done outside, and probably making more money. Bick offers his own bunk mate, who was running romance scams on older women from a camp. The guest, who by then had a career in secrets behind him, sounds genuinely startled. Phones and vapes are everywhere. All of it is against the rules. Nobody cares.
The metaphor he uses for how staff treat inmates is the one he keeps returning to, and it is bleak and exact.
"In their mind we are stray dogs."
You can respond to a stray dog three ways, he says. One person in a hundred feeds it and maybe takes care of it. Ninety ignore it, and are slightly annoyed at it for costing them half a second of attention. And nine or ten will go and actively kick it. "That's my prison experience in a nutshell."
He mentions a food strike and retaliation against the inmates afterwards for no reason he can identify beyond having nothing else to do. He also says, twice, that he does not want to spend two more hours on the prison experience, partly because Bick's other guests have already covered every inch of it and it is the same in every institution.
The thing that surprised him was not the cruelty, it was the universality of the grievance. Every single person there, including men who cheerfully admitted they were guilty, felt they had also been screwed by the system in some specific way. He had assumed he was alone in that. He is careful about how he feels about being wrong. "I'm never happy when something bad happens to somebody else. But I was like, well, at least we're all in this together to some extent."
And, characteristically, he refuses to let it be only grim. Put people together in the worst circumstances and they find ways to joke. "I don't think anybody would ever say prison camp is fun, but it has fun moments and light moments and there were some laughs and some great stories, and in hindsight it's probably a lot rosier than I remember it."
The life sentence after the sentence
He gets out and finds the part nobody sentences you to.
"You have a black cloud over you and a scarlet letter on your forehead, and you are a convicted felon. It doesn't matter what your story is."
He is generous to Bick here, pointing out that the host built something out of the same material, and reaching for Marcus Aurelius: the impediment to action becomes the action, what stands in the way becomes the way.
The restrictions are the specific thing that hurts, and the reason is not what you would guess. It is not the loss of the money or the licence. It is that helping people is now logistically almost impossible. He cannot easily travel. He certainly cannot go overseas. He cannot leave his district when a tornado hits Mississippi without a great deal of permission, and those are exactly the moments his entire skill set exists for.
He is scrupulously fair about the people administering this, which stands out given how hard he is on everyone else in the system. His probation officer is the one part of the machine he praises without qualification: a very good officer, a patient man, whose supervisors approved his trip to do this interview when they did not have to.
He cannot work in finance. Even a job at an ordinary technology company is a higher hurdle than his experience and education would suggest. So the honest answer, he says, is that it is easier to work for yourself.
He has filed a petition for a presidential pardon, sponsored by his sister. A handful of people told him they really wanted to help and then disappeared, which he attributes to people getting busy or finding someone more deserving rather than to anything darker.
"That is something that I would love to see happen, and I think that would free me to really do what I was doing beforehand, which is really helping people."
Dead to them
Bick asks the question the audience has been holding for five hours. What happened with the CIA? Did anyone help? Do they stay in contact? Did they write you off?
His answer is the least self pitying part of the interview, and it is the answer of someone who used to make this decision about other people.
"That's kind of what I signed up for. I was running a lot of these things. I was making a lot of these decisions. So I knew very much what I was getting into."
His company had it set up explicitly: certain things end the relationship. Commit a violent crime. Beat your wife. Do things we do not agree with. And one of those things is pleading guilty to a crime, of essentially any size.
Then he identifies precisely why his particular conviction was fatal, and it is the cruellest structural irony in the whole story.
"When I plead guilty to being a liar, which is what wire fraud effectively means. Anything with fraud in it, you're a convicted liar."
The one profession where being a certified liar is disqualifying is the profession of professional deception in the service of the United States.
"I burned those bridges. Those are great people doing great work, and now I am dead to them and they are dead to me."
He does not expect that to change in a way that means working together again. He is realistic about why the distance is mutual and sensible: guilt by association cuts both ways, and if he and they started communicating again, people would ask what they are working on, because everyone involved is an expert at tradecraft. Easier to cut ties.
And he circles back to why he pled anyway. Losing that world was the biggest reason he did not want to plead and wanted to fight. "But ultimately, look, if they threaten your family, you've got to make tougher decisions." And once he learned who was behind it, he knew it was not going away. "When powerful people put a bullseye on you, you're not getting out of those crosshairs." He says he has seen it happen to other people, from behind the curtain, in his career.
Stormcraft, and the strangers at the funeral
What he does now is write, and advise.
The book, still unfinished, has the working title The Chaos Advantage, and it is a leadership book about the doctrine he calls Stormcraft. He is precise about what it is and where it came from: not a framework developed in a classroom or a think tank, but in the field, in war, in very dangerous places. Its claim is not that you survive chaos but that you convert it. Take a step back from a chaotic situation, work the steps, and ask how this can be turned into an advantage. Tragedy creates gaps. Gaps can be exploited. New dangers arrive with new opportunities.
He traces the birth of it to the days after 11 September, when nobody knew what was coming and the whole world was uncertain, and says he then found it transferred completely. It worked in the NOC world. It worked trading volatility, which is chaos by definition, in very high pressure situations. It worked at Oasis, twenty minutes after a tornado. It worked, he says, in Ukraine.
And it worked when he was targeted, which he flags as the moment it stopped being professional. "Being targeted by something you love more than almost anything, which was the United States of America and defending it, and it suddenly turns its back on you. That's a very uncertain and chaotic time."
He is also clear about who the book is for, and it is not only executives. It is for anybody whose life feels like it is spinning out of control, for a minute or a year or every morning.
The last thing he says before the two of them wrap up is the image that lands hardest, and it comes from the conversation with his sister when he finally told her the truth.
She asked him what she would have known, if none of this had happened.
"The only thing you would have known is, if I died before you, a few people would show up at my funeral that you didn't recognise, that looked like me, sort of. Some guys would come and say Mike was a great guy, and you would say, who are you, and they would say, nice to meet you, and they would leave. And that would be it. And you'd be like, who are those strangers that I've never seen before?"
That is the whole arrangement, stated as a bill. Twenty five years, and the receipt would have been four unfamiliar men at a graveside.
And then the sardonic version of the same thought, which he offers with a laugh: "They should have told me in 1998, you can never talk about any of this unless you go to federal prison, and then you can talk about a little bit of it."
The two of them close warmly. Bick tells him it is the longest episode he has ever done. The guest asks whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Bick says it is good, that you make the space available when someone has a story like that, and that the job is to be a good listener and get out of the way. The guest apologises for the length twice and admits he had intended the whole thing to be much more interactive, and that this is not his style at all.
"That's just the way you do it. And I think, look, you get out of the way and let people just go."
Key takeaways
The claim in one sentence. He says he was prosecuted not for what he did in finance but for what he saw in Ukraine, and that the purpose was to make him unbelievable rather than to recover money. The word he says was used is defanging.
The charge and the alleged loss are small and specific. One count of wire fraud. About 2.8 million dollars. The conduct he pled to is failing to document a disclosure he says he made verbally, about a seed investor's scheduled withdrawal, to one investor in his management company.
The prosecutors, by his account, told him at the outset that no money was missing. The reverse proffer opened with the statement that they knew he had not stolen anything and that all the money was accounted for.
The judge said from the bench that it was not a Ponzi scheme. The press releases said it was. Those two facts sit at the centre of everything he is angry about, and the second one is the one that follows him.
A year and one day is not one year. The extra day puts a federal sentence outside the threshold for good conduct credit and earned time credits. He served six months instead of nearly twelve.
The presentence report is the document that matters most. Judge, prosecution, case manager, unit manager and probation officer all read it, and it is the first impression every one of them forms. He says his own contained inventions, and the guideline range roughly doubled inside it.
Compartmentation makes curiosity a liability. Being read in to something you do not need creates exposure you cannot undo. The correct response to an interesting secret is to refuse to hear it.
Non official cover buys access and removes the safety net entirely. Official cover gets you scolded and deported. A NOC gets a shrug and a denial.
The training taught calibration, not skills. Runs with no announced pass mark, tests you cannot identify as tests, and the specific self knowledge of how far you can sprint before your hands shake too much to shoot.
A felony conviction ends an intelligence career by definition when the felony is fraud. Wire fraud makes you a convicted liar, which is disqualifying in the one field built on deception.
The costs land on people who did not choose them. Two sisters, a set of civilian volunteers he says were threatened, and a group of friends and family who lost the money they put into the management company.
Stormcraft is the throughline. His whole framework is that chaos creates gaps, gaps create opportunity, and the job is to convert a threat into an advantage. He applies it to a tornado, to a trading book, to a war and to his own prosecution.
Chapters
0:00:00 Intro and Guest Introduction
0:01:31 Family and Entrepreneurship
0:05:00 The Call to the Naval Academy
0:12:42 The Challenges of the Naval Academy
0:15:17 Leaving Annapolis After Two Years
0:17:51 The Tragic Loss of His Father
0:21:41 The Funeral and a Call from the Captain
0:24:23 Choosing Family Over Country
0:28:55 Rethinking Leaving Annapolis
0:31:14 The Plan to Return Falls Apart
0:36:24 The Decision to Stay Out of the Military
0:37:57 Mississippi State and Running the Family Business
0:41:17 Sponsor Break: Cash App Security
0:55:36 Buying Properties and Developing a Strategy
1:03:30 The Unexpected Call from an Agency
1:08:40 The First Interview for a CIA Contractor
1:14:40 The Path to Becoming a Contractor
1:19:03 Interviews and the Training Invitation
1:24:05 Paramilitary Training and Selection
1:29:07 Understanding Classification and Compartmentalization
1:34:55 The Intensity of the Initial Training
1:39:19 Field Exercises and Testing Survival Skills
1:47:26 The Importance of Knowing Your Limits
2:01:20 Working as a Paramilitary Contractor
2:07:09 Getting Shot and the Impact of 9/11
2:12:30 The Post-9/11 World and the War on Terror
2:24:03 A Screenplay That Predicted 9/11
2:31:10 Transitioning to a New Role and Grad School
2:37:50 Living as a NOC (Non-Official Cover)
2:42:10 The Intensity of the NOC World
2:47:51 Running a Hedge Fund as Cover
2:57:21 Making Money and Helping a Nonprofit
3:02:41 Volunteering in Ukraine After the Invasion
3:05:00 The Corrupt Side of Humanitarian Aid
3:15:14 The Hidden World of Powerful Elites
3:21:18 Learning You're a Target
3:28:08 The Plan to Discredit Him
3:34:55 A New SEC Inquiry and the Missing Questions
3:39:01 The Target Letter and the DOJ
3:44:37 Attempting to Investigate the Management Company
3:50:59 The Reverse Proffer: The DOJ's Show of Force
4:01:44 The Threats That Forced His Hand
4:03:42 The Strategic Choice to Plead Guilty
4:08:35 The Courtroom Deal and Sentencing Guidelines
4:12:00 The Aftermath of the Guilty Plea
4:16:08 The Hit to His Reputation
4:18:24 The FBI Agent and the Press Release
4:22:47 Dealing with the PSR and Sentencing
4:27:44 The Leak and the Fallout
4:31:14 The PSR: A Document Full of Falsehoods
4:35:35 The Sentencing Hearing
4:40:20 The Judge's Unusual Statement
4:45:36 Getting a Year and a Day
4:50:00 A Trip to Federal Prison Camp
4:56:30 The Confusing Charges and the Real Crime
5:04:20 The Plea Deal and the Missing Documentation
5:09:30 The Sentencing Hearing and a Shoutout to the Judge
5:12:10 The Camp: A Place for the Forgotten
5:16:08 Life After Prison and the Supervised Release
5:21:01 The CIA and the Burning of Bridges
5:25:20 Finding a New Path Post-Prison
Notable quotes
"Of course family comes above country. As much of a patriot as I was and am, and as much as I wanted to serve, my family needs me. So that's a no brainer." (on leaving Annapolis after his father died, 0:24:23)
"You're going to be doing all the things you wanted to do as a SEAL. You're just not going to be wearing an American flag when you do it. And you're not going to call your mom or your girlfriend when you're done and say, mom, guess what I just did." (the pitch to become a contractor, 1:14:40)
"It's a masked ball in a labyrinth with a thousand doors, and you open one door and there are two more, and you open one of those doors and there are five more." (on compartmented access, 1:29:07)
"As interesting as it may be, who killed JFK, tell me, tell me, tell me. It's like, I'm not read in on that. So don't tell me, because now I'm on the hook for it." (why curiosity is a liability, 1:29:07)
"If your hands are shaking, you can't shoot straight." (on knowing exactly how far you can sprint, 1:47:26)
"I can walk in a coffee shop for two hours, order coffee, work on my laptop, look like a normal everyday civilian, and I leave and nobody knows I've been there." (on being the grey man, 1:47:26)
"Number one, don't smoke. Number two, don't ride a motorcycle. Everything else, you're just rolling the dice." (the two rules of life, from a Syrian neurosurgeon he calls Dr. Muhana, 1:47:26)
"When people go to war and generals lose the war, they shoot the generals. When people win the war, people still shoot the generals." (attributed to Cofer Black at the Counterterrorism Center, 2:12:30)
"If any NOC gets caught, you're done. You're cooked. They're going to be like, who the hell is Michael Wayne? We don't know who you're talking about." (on non official cover, 2:37:50)
"I could go into those same meetings and ask those questions instead of having to recruit you, who works for the sovereign wealth fund, to spy on the government for me." (why a hedge fund is the ideal cover, 2:47:51)
"If I throw a thousand white marbles on this table and I tell you one white marble is a pearl, but they all look exactly alike, good luck finding the white marble." (why bad conspiracy theories protect the real thing, 3:15:14)
"We need you to defang this guy. It's like the fangs of a snake. Take the fangs out of a snake, the snake's harmless. Brand him a liar, find something on him, convict him, get him to plead." (his account of the instruction that started the case, 3:28:08)
"We know you didn't steal any money. We know all the money is accounted for. But you're still going down." (what he says the lead prosecutor opened the reverse proffer with, 3:50:59)
"Their biggest guns were slingshots you make out of a paper clip and a rubber band in study hall." (walking out of the reverse proffer, 3:50:59)
"When the justice system of the most powerful country in the world wants to screw you, you're going to get screwed. It's just a matter of how bad it's going to be." (one of his lawyers, before any of it happened, 4:03:42)
"Mike, I've done it. I know they do it. That was my job. That's why I was good at what I do." (a former prosecutor on his own defence team, on whether the government invents material, 4:31:14)
"They were calling like they were calling someone who was on the ledge of the Empire State Building about to jump." (his sisters' voicemails after the press release went out, 4:27:44)
"I've served on this bench for over thirty years and this is the most unusual wire fraud case I've ever seen. This was not a Ponzi scheme. This defendant did not line his own pockets with the victim's money." (the sentencing judge, as he recounts it from the transcript he obtained, 4:40:20)
"At first I was like, oh my God, shut up. And then he kept talking. I was like, say more. Keep talking." (listening to that speech from the defence table, 4:40:20)
"I had disclosed it. I just didn't document it. And as any white collar felon will tell you, if you don't document it, you're wrong, or it's illegal." (on the single act he pled guilty to, 5:04:20)
"In their mind we are stray dogs." (on how camp staff regarded the men in their care, 5:12:10)
"When I plead guilty to being a liar, which is what wire fraud effectively means. I burned those bridges. Now I am dead to them and they are dead to me." (on the end of the intelligence career, 5:21:01)
"They should have told me in 1998, you can never talk about any of this unless you go to federal prison, and then you can talk about a little bit of it." (5:21:01)
"The only thing you would have known is, if I died before you, a few people would show up at my funeral that you didn't recognise, that looked like me, sort of." (what he told his sister the twenty five years would have amounted to, 5:25:20)
Resources mentioned
People
Ian Bick, the host, himself a former federal inmate.
Michael Williams, the guest, introduced under that name and addressed throughout as Michael Wayne.
Captain Chamberlain, the Marine officer in charge of his company at Annapolis, who let him fly home.
Cofer Black, head of the CIA Counterterrorism Center on 11 September 2001, source of the generals line.
Bernie Madoff, whose collapse produced the custody rules he says made it impossible to steal from his own fund.
Robert E. Lee, for the line about war being terrible.
The Enron and WorldCom prosecutions, cited as the pedigree of the unit that charged him.
His own projects
Oasis, the Organization for Active Social Impact and Sustainability, his disaster relief nonprofit.
Kids Helping Ukraine, the fundraiser selling friendship bracelets made by Ukrainian children, which he says is still running.
The Chaos Advantage, the working title of the unfinished leadership book about the Stormcraft doctrine, available for pre sale on his own site, which he plugs on air.
This is one man's account, given for the first time, about work that is designed to leave nothing behind and about a criminal case in which he pled guilty and therefore never contested anything at trial. Both halves of that sentence matter, and they cut in different directions.
Some of what he says is checkable in principle, and the interview itself points at where. He says he obtained the transcript of his sentencing hearing specifically for the judge's speech. He says the two press releases exist and are the only public account of him. He says the docket sits in the Southern District of Ohio, the plea was entered in Columbus in October 2023, sentencing followed in the spring of 2024, and the sentence was one year and one day against a government request for six and a half years. He names the facility he served in. He gives the alleged loss figure. None of those are the sort of thing a person invents casually, and all of them are the sort of thing a reader can go and look at.
Other parts are, by construction, unverifiable. Nobody outside the arrangement can confirm a contractor career under non official cover. That is what non official cover means. The three options he says were discussed for dealing with him, up to and including killing him, come from two colleagues he cannot name, described to him after the fact. The identity of the people he says ordered the prosecution is withheld. The claim that aid was being diverted in Ukraine by Americans, and that this is what triggered everything, rests entirely on his testimony.
The public record he describes
What he says happened
The headline
Multi million dollar Ponzi scheme, in DOJ and SEC press releases the day he pled
The word Ponzi was never used once in the case, including at the reverse proffer
Missing money
None alleged. He was never indicted, nothing was seized, the fund was never shut down
Prosecutor's opening line: we know all the money is accounted for
The judge
Sentenced him to a year and a day, well under the guideline floor and the government request
"This was not a Ponzi scheme. This defendant did not line his own pockets"
The conduct
One count of wire fraud, roughly 2.8 million dollars
One undocumented verbal disclosure to one investor about a seed investor's exit
Why it started
An SEC inquiry opened in December 2020 and escalated in spring 2023
The inquiry was dormant for over two years and revived only after he protested in Ukraine
Who prosecuted
DOJ and FBI units out of Washington, in a district he had no connection to
Venue via bank servers; the elite units brought in deliberately, to defang him
Figure 5. The two accounts, using only what the interview itself supplies for both columns. Green marks where the government's own conduct supports his version. Amber marks where the only source is him.
Three things are worth holding in mind while reading the page above.
A guilty plea is a legal fact, not a factual one. He argues at length that the trial penalty, the cost of defence, the venue and the threats to his family made fighting irrational regardless of guilt. That argument is not exotic. It is the standard critique of a system where he says roughly ninety seven per cent of cases resolve without trial, and where a small drop in that rate would seize the machine. But it also means that nothing in his case was ever tested by cross examination, including his own account.
The pattern he describes is common, and that cuts both ways. Dormant regulatory files that revive, guideline ranges that expand inside the presentence report, press releases that outrun the charge, families used as leverage: these are recurring complaints across white collar defendants, which is either evidence that the system does this or evidence that this is what defendants say. The unusual elements in his case are the judge's on record statement, the size of the alleged loss relative to the seniority of the units that pursued it, and the absence of any indictment, seizure or shutdown.
The intelligence half explains the conviction only if you accept the intelligence half. Take the career as described, and the prosecution reads as retaliation. Set it aside, and what remains is a hedge fund manager who pled guilty to a wire fraud count over a documentation failure and drew a very light sentence from a sympathetic judge. He is aware of that, and he never asks Bick to take him on faith about anything he could have proved and did not. He also volunteers the parts that make him look worse, including the friends who lost money in the management company and stood up in court to call him a thief.
He does not open the interview with any of this, and neither does this page. He tells it forwards, from Tupelo, and lets you decide at the end.
Full transcript
========================================
He worked for the CIA for 25 years and
says the US government set him up and
sent him to prison. My guest today is
Michael Williams. He spent 25 years
working as a CIA contractor and under
non-official cover before traveling to
Ukraine after the Russian invasion. He
says what he uncovered there put him in
the DOJ's crosshairs and federal prison.
Today, he's telling his side of the
story for the first time ever.
grew up in Tupelo, Mississippi. Okay.
So, small town. Uh it's where Elvis
Presley's from.
>> You brought me a nice mug.
>> Yes. I hope you enjoy that. Um
it it was a small town, kind of
sheltered in the grand scheme of things,
but we were sort of like the big city
kids in the in the area, I think,
because our town was was a whopping like
30,000 35,000 people.
um where all the towns around us were
you know much smaller than that. So we
were I think kind of considered you know
the city kids even though we were mostly
just middle class and
reasonably sheltered and um you know
just a good American upbringing. Our my
hometown's been like a all voted
all-American city I don't know how many
times. So it's a little like a suburb of
a big city. We had everything you needed
but without the big city nearby. Um but
yeah, just good all-American
hometown.
>> Both of your parents were in the picture
growing up.
>> Yes. Uh good stable family. Um parents
started out as school teachers. My dad
um kind of became an or didn't kind of
he did become an entrepreneur. He he
bought a sporting goods store. So that
was most of my life um that I knew him
as from a work environment is that he
owned the sporting goods store [snorts]
and the town was small. So he was kind
of the sporting goods store guy. There
was one other sporting goods store in
town, but my dad's shop was bigger,
which was still, you know, a mom and pop
shop. But, um,
it felt, uh,
sort of like a big deal in a, you know,
in a small town that people knew my
dad's name because it was called Bill
Williams Sporting Goods. So, and that
was his name. So, um, if I said, "Yeah,
Bill Williams," they would say, "Bill
Sporting Goods." Yeah. Oh, that's Yeah,
that's your dad. Yeah, that's my dad.
So, little bit of a little bit of an ego
boost whenever I would have those
conversations. But, um, you know, I
think I I've been an entrepreneur my
whole life and I think I probably got
that a little bit from him. I think
you're kind of born with the
entrepreneurship kind of gene, if you
will. [snorts] But, um, the fact that he
ran his own business, I think was
probably put the seed in my head very
early on.
>> Were you into sports, too? Yes. Um,
played everything growing up. Um, and
certainly having a dad in the sporting
goods business kind of made that very
easy. Uh, I never, you know, we were we
were a solidly middle class family, but
I never wanted for anything sports
related. If I needed a new bat, I got it
because I could just go down to my dad's
store and beg him for it and he would he
would eventually maybe give me one. I
couldn't get three or four or five. I
didn't get a new one every year, but if
I needed one, I would get one. if I
needed a new glove or a pair of cleats
or anything, I would get a good solid
pair of cleats. Had the first pair of
Air Jordans that ever came out. Had no
idea who Air Jordan, who Michael Jordan
was. Nobody really did at the time. Um,
[snorts]
but, you know, just knew they were cool
shoes and and got a pair and wish I
still had them, but I don't. Um, but did
play every sport growing up. um
played narrow that down from everything
everything you play in the south. You
know, we didn't really have uh cold
weather sports. We didn't have hockey,
which I think I would have loved. Um
never played that. Didn't really have
lacrosse. Um of course, we didn't snow
ski or anything. We would travel and
snowk later in high school a little bit.
And I go and I've snowkied since then.
um lots I love I I try to go you know
outside of my conviction and all of that
I would try to try to go out for a
couple weeks every year but didn't grow
up doing it at all but eventually kind
of narrowed down to football and
baseball played church basketball but
because sports are so uh time consuming
that you
as you grow up and get better at it and
as your teams get better and I played on
some really really great teams uh you
kind of have to pick. You know, you're
either going to focus on one or two or
you're going to be very average and
probably ride the bench in three or four
or five, unless you're just phenomenal
athlete. And I was a good athlete, but I
wasn't a phenomenal athlete. So,
>> did you end up going to college?
>> I did. Um went to the Naval Academy of
uh which was an experience. Um a good
experience ultimately.
of
I never been to Annapolis. This is kind
of how shel how sheltered shelter is not
the best word for it but
I don't think this would happen in you
know in today's world where a kid
would just go to college
four or 500 miles away having never set
foot on the campus or really talked to
anybody that was there or knew a whole
lot about it other than what they had
read in a catalog because [snorts] we
didn't have the internet. This was kind
of right before the birth of of the
internet and email and all of that. So
my first day at Annapapolis was uh the
day before my induction day which starts
pleb summer which is basically the boot
camp. You go there in the summer. I
think I reported on like June 29th and
boot camp started the next day. um my
day my days may be off a day or two, but
and then you're you know you're in boot
camp for six weeks and then the upper
classman come back and you start the
academic year. But um that was a big
deal. Um Annapolis was and still is very
hard to get into. Um
I wanted that challenge. I wanted to
serve. I think I felt a calling to serve
as as cheesy as that may sound. I used
to equate it when people would ask like
why did you go to to to uh the Naval
Academy. Um [snorts]
I would equate it to kind of like how
probably ministers and priests kind of
feel a calling to to go follow God. I
felt a calling to kind of serve my
country. And I had the grades and the
and the athleticism and the the
leadership uh of all the great teams
that I was a part of and the great
coaches that I had and the great
teachers that I had and the great family
that I had and have um even though my
parents have passed away now, but uh
that I had the opportunity to even apply
like you have to and I'm not sure how it
is now because this was many moons ago,
but at the time for Annapolis, you had
to apply apply to apply because I think
you know it's the Navy so I guess the
government didn't want to send out that
many applications because back then it
was all handwritten. It was not don't it
wasn't fill out this form online um and
and submit it via email. It was print
this or or we're going to mail you a
packet. You fill it out with a ballpoint
pen and mail it back to us and we'll get
back to you, you know. But I had to get
a congressional appointment. So, I had
to I had to uh go to my senators and
congressmen um convince them that I was
worthy. That was after the
pre-application. So, you apply to apply.
So, I don't know how many people do
that, but they end up sending about and
again, this I think is generally about
the same because the school's the same
size. It hasn't grown um because it's
the Naval Academy. um they're not
necessarily trying to make more money
and expand their their size of their
student body,
but about 12,000 people apply and about
1,200, 1100, 1200 are accepted. So about
a 10% um acceptance rate and the the
people that even apply I believe may I
can't remember exactly to apply I think
you you may have to have a congressional
appointment which is its own set of
applications and impressing those
politicians and and things like that.
You can also get one from the president
or the vice president. I had zero
connections to them. I had zero
connections to the senators and
congressmen in Mississippi. But again, I
was on great sports teams. Um, we had
made some international news. We had a
lot of really great things going on in
high school that looking back
seemed now very impressive, but at the
time they were just like, uh, yeah,
that's that's pretty cool, I guess.
Like, we were on ESPN when ESPN was
small. This was when there was one ESPN.
There weren't 20. Um, we were on ESPN
when we were in high school. We had a
guy from my high school, one of my one
of my buddies that was on Teen Jeopardy.
We had a guy that went on the Tonight
Show as a magician. Like, um, we had one
of the best guitar players that still to
this day I've ever seen. And so, but
they would do these things and people
would kind of make a big deal about it
for about a day and then they were just
back to being normal kids. I invented a
math formula at some point that I don't
even remember. And I didn't even know
I'd invented it until I came back to
class one day and my my teacher said,
"This is the Michael Wayne uh formula."
And I was like, "Wait, I'm in the you
know, I'm in the middle of class." I'm
like, "Wait, what?" She goes, "Yeah, you
came you told me this formula the other
day of like it's a it's a kind of a
quicker version. Instead of doing these
four steps, we can make that into two
steps." And I was like, "Yeah, but I
thought that you didn't just know that
or that's not common sense." And it
probably was. And and it was probably
not a big deal at all. But I looked back
at it and I saw my teacher like 20 years
later and I was like, "Do you remember
that when you said I invented a
formula?" And she was like, "No."
[laughter] And I was like, "That might
have been like a big deal." Like I could
have gotten published for that or
something, you know? in today's society
where I could quickly go online and show
everybody my brilliance or whatever or
dumb luck or whatever you want to call
it. Simple observation is what it was.
But at the time like I for you know 10
minutes in class one day I felt very
important and then it was just gone and
everything was back to normal. But um I
guess having those things and I mean my
my again back to the teams we were you
know nationally ranked in sports and
football and baseball. We win multiple
state championships. We led the led the
nation one year in no hitters in
baseball and won a state championship
that year. And again, it wasn't even a
big deal. Like it was just, yeah, you
guys are really good. Keep, you know,
keep it up. So, um, getting into
Annapolis was a was a huge honor and
I was I remember being, you know, very
excited and very honored, but at the
same time thinking, well, yeah, like, of
course, I got in. I got into West Point,
too. I didn't apply to the Air Force
Academy. [snorts] Um, but yeah, like
I've worked my ass off for 17 18 years
and and this is the reward for it so
far. Now the real challenge begins
because you know Annapolis is an
extremely hard place. That's why it's
considered one of the best schools in
the world. um not just academically but
for the military aspect of it, the
leadership components
and just turning
raw high school kids and and people also
come from the fleet from enlist from
from the enlisted ranks. If they if they
perform well in the enlisted ranks, they
can apply and be accepted as well, which
is a great pipeline, I think. Um and
they have so much value. I was one of my
good friends there was a former enlisted
guy uh who you know just taught us all a
lot because we're coming straight out of
high school. I didn't know how to
salute. I didn't know how to march. I
didn't know how to put on a uniform
correctly. Of course he did. And of
course everybody else, the upper class
and the the other the instructors and
the other officers there taught us
everything you'd ever you know to need
to know to be a officer. But that's
where real leadership training started
as well. coming from the sports again
and coming from the great coaches and
coming from the great teachers that I
had and the great family and great
parents. Uh it was a refinement of
leadership training that I think has
served me well since then and um you
know extremely tough place to be. I
think it's I when I describe it I
describe it as kind of like running a
marathon or doing a triathlon like doing
an iron man which I hate doing distance
stuff. So that's why I've done it and
that's why I kind of you know did the
paramilitary side of things because it
something that I kind of hated so I
wanted to conquer it if you will. Um I
hated triathlon so I I kind of wanted to
make them my play thing. I wanted to you
know win them. Not just not just survive
them but win them. never did, but got
got fairly decent at them. Um, but they
suck. You know, when you're in the
middle of it, when you're in the middle
of a tough workout, anything that's
tough in life, it's going to suck. And
it's easy to quit. And if you think, why
am I doing this? And you can see the
purpose behind it
and see that there's something bigger
and more important and that you're
contributing a small way into doing
something that will either
make you a better person and make you a
better person for those around you where
you can make a bigger and better impact
on other people in your immediate orbit
or on a bigger scale. uh to people that
are you know on on the outer rings of
your orbit or you know even to society
um and you know nonprofits and volunteer
work and things like that or certainly
in the military of like make me a great
leader and this is going to suck but I'm
going to come out of here and I'm going
to be an officer in the Navy or the
Marine Corps and I'm going to go out
into the fleet and I'm going to kick ass
and I'm going to train these guys up and
we're going to be the baddest
[ __ ] on the planet and and I
fear uh for the terror we're going to
put into anybody that ever opposes loses
us or or tries to harm anyone that uh
that I love or anyone that stands
alongside or in front of the American
flag. So, that's that's what it was all
about and that's what I I you know, I
was like, "Sign me up. Sign me up. I
know how hard it's going to be and it
was, but I always felt like there was a
a bigger purpose and a bigger reason for
being there." So, it was worth all the
suckiness about it. You know, you
remember that when you're there. It's a
tough the the the cliche back then and
I'm sure it's still around is it's a
tough place to be but a great place to
be from. And it's not just because you
get a leg up because you come from a
great school when you go try to get a
job or whatever after you're out if you
if you don't spend your career as a in
in the Navy or Marine Corps. But you're
committed. That's another thing. When
you when you sign up, you're committed
to at the time it was five years. So
you're not committed to you don't just
go to college. You go for four years and
then you are committed by law
effectively for another five after that.
So you're signing up for nine years at
17 18 years old. That's a serious
commitment, you know, when you've only
been on the planet for for 17 years.
>> That's half life already.
>> Exactly. That you're and you're just
like, gee, I'm going to be like, you
know, my late 20s when I'm when before I
can even think about getting out. Like
that's I'm going to be an old man.
[laughter]
But uh so you got to know what you're
getting into and you know people quit
and people wash out and people go and
hack it and they realize you know
they're doing it for the wrong reasons
and people get kicked out. Um people
flunk out but uh the people that stay
I think they have tremendous uh skills
not just academically and and
intellectually but from a leadership
standpoint. And this goes for all the
servicemies
um that you know I think from even back
in the 90s when I was there up to now
that we're our military and leadership
are in very good hands if maybe it's
gotten even better. Um, I like some of
the things that I'm seeing coming out of
those places, just following them on
social media all the way from Hex Seth
down to the superintendent
u of the Naval Academy and and the other
servicemies. But anyway, I'll I'll shut
up about that. But
>> where'd you go after the Naval Academy?
>> So, I was in Annapolis for two years.
Um, all that all that rahrh about
Annapolis and I and I didn't even
graduate. But, um, I I was there for the
two hard years. I guess all four years
are tough, I think, but it progressively
gets slightly easier. You know, your
plebe year, your freshman year is your
hardest. Um, I think by far, but my your
sophomore year is called your youngster
year. It's just a nickname for it. So, I
may interject those two. um
sophomore the this the [snorts] winter
of my sophomore year, my father passed
away, died of cancer.
So, I had a tough choice at that time.
Um it kind of fell to me and my family.
Um
because I was in college, I had no huge
commitments. I didn't have a, you know,
a job and a and a career. My sisters
did. Um we
still had the sporting goods store. My
dad had sold my dad had been sick for a
year. He died almost a year to the day
after his first surgery. So he was
diagnosed with lung cancer, had surgery
like within a within a week or two and
then died almost exactly one year to the
day after his surgery, went into
remission for a few months during that
time, but but ultimately succumbed. And
it was it was very sad. But in that time
while he was in remission, he sold the
bigger store and just had one smaller
store that was more of a retail store.
Like in the big store, he did what we
called the big store. Uh he did a lot of
team stuff. So he would outfit entire,
you know, uh university football teams
and high school teams for any sport,
every sport, all the way down to
softball teams. If you and your crew
wanted to put together a softball team
or now a pick pickle ball team or
something and you needed jerseys and
shorts and matching socks and this that
and the other, you would come to Bill
Williams Sporting Goods and you would
you would get outfitted. Um, and then he
sold that and still had a smaller store
that was more retail, but it was still
there, but it was just it was on a
lifeline. And my mom was taking care of
my dad and was dealing with with his
illness and also still teaching school.
She was a high she was a junior high
school uh teacher and I she took a
sbatical at some point in there maybe
the last years of his last year of his
life or the last several months of his
life. Um he died in the hospital so he
didn't go to hospice or anything like
that. So it all kind of toward the end
it kind of came on pretty quickly. I
remember getting a call at Annapolis
from one of my best friends dads. And
back then, you know, we didn't really
have cell phones. So, if you wanted to
message to anyone, you had to call like
the main office at Annapolis. And they
sent a runner up to your where your
company lived. We all lived in one giant
dorm. Um, a company's about 120 people
of all ranks. You all kind of live in
the same same part of the dorm. So, they
send a runner up to the company. Then
the the guy standing watch at the
company comes and finds you and says hey
you need to you know you got to you have
a message here's your message and give
me the message and call this guy. So I
now I go down to the phone room there's
a huge room not huge but a big room of
payoneses and so you didn't need to put
this was beyond where you just needed to
plug it full of quarters but you could
use a calling card. So I go it's truly
like a phone booth. you go into the
phone booth, shut the doors, call up,
and and I remember my friend's dad said,
"You need you need to go ahead and come
home." And I was like, "Man, like, you
know where I am. Like, I can't just be
like, "See you. I'm going to jump in the
car and come home. One, I'm in Maryland.
Two, I'm in a in in on a military base,
which is effectively like a prison.
Like, you can't just leave. Um, and I
didn't have a car even if I wanted to.
So, I'm like, you know, that's that's
easier said than done." and he's like,
"Yeah, you need to go ahead and come
home." And so I knew at that point like,
"Oh man, I I need to go." So went and
talked to my captain who's uh Captain
Chamberlain, great guy, was over our
company. He was the he was a marine
captain. Um kind of he was the officer
in charge of our company of of college
kids, you know, of of midshipman, that's
what we were called. [sighs]
and made it work and flew out either
that day or the next day and and got
home kind of just in time for dad to
pass away and I was there when he
passed. Um with with my you know the
rest of my family. Uh but
I remember
coming home from his funeral
and so you know I can't remember the
exact days or the exact timeline but
as as I think is normally the case you
know person passes away a day goes by
you kind of make arrangements and maybe
the second day or third day you have a
wake and a visitation and then a
funeral. So it was maybe 2 3 days later
and I hadn't really reported in cuz you
know my head space is not in Annapolis
thinking about like uh differential
equations and and physics 3 and like uh
Aegis class cruisers and things like
that. It's about you know my family and
my father. And so I hadn't checked in
and I hadn't even thought about it which
was my own oversight. But we got back
from the funeral and we walked in the
door and and I have a huge extended
family, huge tons of aunts and uncles
and cousins, now second and third
cousins. Um, but the phone rang. We had
I mean we probably had 70 people at the
house. Somebody answered it and I
remember walking in the back door and
the phone was kind of on the wall there
near coming into the kitchen and my
maybe my aunt her sister, I don't even
know who said, "Hey, this is for you."
So I'm like, "Oh, okay." answered the
phone and it was it was Captain
Chamberlain and he was like, "Hey, uh,
just checking in, you know, like hadn't
heard from you in a couple days, like
what's you know, you can't like you
can't just check out. You can't just
leave an you can't just leave a military
base as an active duty member of the
Navy and not check in or not report in
or or just stay as long as you want.
It's not a vacation." And of course he
didn't say that but like all that just
suddenly just ran through my brain
immediately and I was like oh man you
know now I'm thinking God am I in
trouble? Um but you know again great guy
he knew the situation and he was like
well you know we're just wondering like
what's going on and like like when when
we should expect you back
and I was like well captain I actually
just walked in the door for my father's
funeral. [laughter]
So, can I call you back like in a couple
of hours? And uh he was like, "Oh my
god, yes, of course. Of course." So, um
all that was kind of a side note. So,
apologies for going off on a tangent,
but um that's kind of where my head was
at and where it kind of stayed because I
realized soon thereafter like nobody had
really been running the store, um the
sporting goods store. Mom had been
taking care of dad and dealing with her
own stuff and we had kind of had
somebody and a few people trying to help
out a little bit here or there but it
wasn't a priority. So the store store
was on life support. It was near
bankruptcy and I figured that out. I
can't remember how exactly or who told
me that but um I learned it and I was
like oh man like
uh we can't just let this thing go
bankrupt. I mean this is my dad's
legacy. This is my family's legacy. Um,
and like my mom needs me home. Like my
mom, I think my mom went in the hospital
soon after that just because she was so
worn out and burned out from taking care
of my dad and being in and out of the
hospital with him, just visiting him.
And there's so many things that that she
went through with him. God bless her. I
mean, she was a soldier that he would go
into the hospital and he would get out
and something would happen and he had to
turn around and go back and he he it
went the cancer moved from his uh lung
he had a lung surgery and then the
cancer moved to his hip. So he ended up
he ended up dying I guess of bone cancer
but it was on his iliac crest on his
pelvis. So that affected like his whole
leg and walking ability and things like
this. So he's like, "No, I can walk."
And he really couldn't, but he didn't
want to use the wheelchair and there
stairs. And so, you know, God bless my
mom for for and we didn't hire anybody.
You know, he just kind of sucked it up
and did it. So,
she needed help. Um, and and I kind of
saw it as my duty as this as the the
only son and the youngest who's kind of
that isn't tied to a family or a career
like my sisters were. So, it was easier
for me. As tough as it was to leave
Annapolis and as tough
as it had been to get accepted and to be
there and to and to and to give that up,
people ask still to this day, you know,
was it hard when you decided to leave
Annapolis? And I said, I I can't even
think of it that way because it was a it
was a no-brainer decision. You know, of
course, family comes above country.
as much as as big of a patriot as I as I
was and am um and as much as I wanted to
serve, you know, my family needs me. So,
that's a no-brainer. Um do I regret it?
No. Do I wish things had been different?
Absolutely. Um but, you know, my life
kind of got I had the opportunity to
serve afterwards, not in the Navy, um
but in, you know, in the intelligence
community
and ended up going to from Annapolis. I
came home. I ran my father's business.
My mom retired from teaching school
later that year or at the end of that
year. So that was the the spring. I left
Annapolis about close to the end of the
year. So I didn't quite make it to the
end of my second year. Um and that was
you do have the you do have an out. They
give you an out at the end of your
sophomore year, at the end of your
youngster year. If it's just not for
you, you can say see you later and you
can with you can resign from the Naval
Academy and go, you know, live your life
and you have no commitment. But when you
come back for your junior year, you sign
a commitment.
>> Um, you actually sign on a dotted line.
It's a big ceremony. It's a big deal.
And they have a name for it now. I don't
think we had a name for it back then,
but like you know when you show up, you
know, you come because in in summer you
go to training. You don't just go off
and and party all summer. You go to
different training. Um depending on what
year you you know what what summer
you're between if you're between
freshman and sophomore you do a certain
set of training sophomore and junior
another set junior senior you kind of
have a choice of what you might want to
go into. Do you want to fly jets? Do you
want to be a SEAL? Do you want to be on
submarines? Whatever. And you can kind
of steer toward that direction to get
exposure into that niche um of the Navy
or Marine Corps to see if you like it.
because a lot of people, you know, want
to be seals until they go to mini buds
and then they're like, "Screw this,
man." Like, "This is way harder than I
thought it was going to be." Um, so they
they bounce and then, you know, they
they end up doing something else. But
it's good to get that exposure
beforehand. But when you come back for
your junior year, you sign a commitment
and you're in it. Like, if you quit or
get kicked out at that point, um, you're
you go to the fleet as an enlisted
person. So, I didn't have to worry about
that, thankfully. um not you know you
know what I mean by that not thankfully
but the timing was not as horrible as it
could have been um but I was I actually
planned to go back I was a decent
student at Annapolis the the academics
there were were a shell shock I thought
when I went to Annapolis everybody was
going to be like me kind of a jock who
was also pretty smart um and and
probably more jock than smart. Um,
and what it turned out to be was like
the smartest guys and girls in like six
counties, wherever they were from, who
could also do like 50 push-ups. So,
I was way behind the curve when I first
got there academically. I mean, I had
all A's. I made one B um in in high
school, and that's cuz I got the
chickenpox and missed like a month of
school and came back and and couldn't
make up the grades. And that's a whole
another story I won't bore you with, but
that's still a a burr under my saddle
cuz I really should have had an A, but
it I'll I'll skip that. So, I ended up
with one B in high school and, you know,
took all the AP classes and all the
things you need to do to get into a
school like Annapolis. Um, but
so
the fact that it was so hard to get in
and and that I was there and I was
excelling and I I didn't that I didn't
hate it. You know, nobody loves it when
you're there. back to the triathlon and
marathon kind of analogy a few minutes
ago, but I appreciated it to the point
where I didn't want to leave. I never
thought about leaving. Never thought a
single day. And people call BS on this
um people that I was there with and and
people that have been through the
through themies. But I never said this
to anybody, but Justin's like, "We all
thought about it. Come on. You didn't
think about it?" Like, I never thought
about leaving. Never thought about
quitting. as hard as it was, never even
never even said
never I don't want to say never crossed
my mind, but it never crossed my mind to
the point of like, man, I don't know if
I can hack this. I might I might need
to, you know, go ahead and check out and
go somewhere that's easier. Never in my
mind, never even crossed my mind until I
had to make the decision and said, I'm
leaving. And which was a very hard
decision to make, of course, but at the
same time, again, it was a no-brainer
decision.
So, all that to say is as soon as I I
tried to set the stage before I left,
because it's a process to get out. You
can't again, you can't just leave and
say, "See you later. You got to go
through all this uh withdrawal process
and talk to this person and that person
and get signed off and turn your
equipment in and all this." So, I did
all that, but I set the stage to return
one year later. And nobody does that
except like you don't quit Annapolis.
people quit. People leave Annapolis and
people leave the Naval Academy in West
Point and the Air Force Academy for a
handful of reasons. One, you get kicked
out. Um, you break the honor code and
and you get kicked out for an honor
violation or you fail. You fail out. You
can't hack it academically or
militarily. So, you fail out and then or
you quit because you hate it or you you
know, yeah, basically because you hate
it. Um, so nobody leaves and nobody
comes back or excuse me, if you leave,
nobody comes back. Nobody transfers in.
There's no NIL deal now that we have
that with sports. Um, no. Uh, so there's
there's no open door policy of coming
and going. You if you go to school, you
could go to Harvard for three years,
then get accepted to the Naval Academy
and or you know, again, the other
service is the same way. When you go to
the Naval Academy, you're not going in
as a senior or even a junior. You're
going in as a freshman. You're going to
be 21 and whatever years old, but you're
starting day one just like Mike coming
from Tupelo, Mississippi, you know,
who's never even been to Annapolis,
Maryland, never seen the campus of the
United States Naval Academy, never taken
a college course other than AP courses
in high school. But so nobody comes and
goes. So I was like, but I want to come
back and I'm I'm a good student. I'm a
better uh soldier, even though, you
know, we'll say sailor. Uh soldier's
army. I get I get punched for saying
soldier
around the around my Navy Marine Corps
guys and girls. But um as soon as I
left, I was just going to drop a year. I
was class of 97. I was going to drop and
be class of 98. The only precedent for
that are Mormons. So Mormons generally
take a year during college and go on a
mission. So we had Mormons at the Naval
Academy. And they would do that. they
would take a year off, go on a mission
trip for a year, come back and pick up
kind of where they left off. So, I was
like, "Well, I'm not Mormon, but there's
the precedent, so it's doable. Let me do
it." And they were like, "All right,
well, let's we'll let's do that. We'll
do that. But let's
process this
uh withdrawal first and then we'll start
the whole other side of it on the other
side once you're out and all that."
Yeah. Yeah, I get it. And that's kind of
what I wanted to do. first things first
because I got to go take care of the
family, take care of the business. I
mean, within a month after I was home,
I'm back in Mississippi. Um,
I was going to go to to Mississippi
State for a year just to keep my
academics up. I couldn't transfer any
grades back in, but I didn't want to
just sit on the couch for a year, of
course. So, my thought was, well, I'll
go take all the classes at Mississippi
State that I was that I'm going to take
my junior year at Annapolis and I'll
come in back to Annapolis and just I'll
have to take those classes again, but
I'll just I'll breeze through. Instead
of making C's and B's, I'll make B's and
A's. Um, which like making a C in
Annapolis is actually pretty good. Like,
like I said, you've got the smartest
people uh in the country going there.
And so the the curve, I mean, I can I
won't go down a tangent on that, but I
mean, there were plenty of tests and
plenty of classes that I took where I
would show back up in into the hall into
the dorm um and we would compare grades
when we got our test papers back like to
see who got the worst. And it was a joke
because on from one to 100, you know, we
would make 17s,
not like 97s,
uh, well, that we were all making in
high school, but like 17s and 10s and
20s. And then of course you had the guy,
the smartest guys and girls who were
making 97s and we're just like, dude,
we're kill you're killing me here. like
but thankfully they would you know a lot
of the times they would curve it so that
you know that 17 would turn into a 67 or
something and so you'd you know you'd
kind of squeak by or or get by but um as
soon as I was back in Mississippi I'm
thinking all right I got to take care of
the business I got to you know take care
of mom take care of the family take care
of the house plan on going get get ready
get ready to go to Mississippi State
which was just this where my friends
were is it's uh was close it was an hour
away from from my hometown town
and I got the call of like, okay, I we
need to know from Annapolis. We need to
know right now if you're coming back and
like we need to start the paperwork and
start processing everything. And I was
like, dude, my like I just got home.
like yes I'm coming but coming back but
I can't like as an honorable guy who's
you know taught that's the whole
everything that that the blood of
Anapapolis and all again the military in
general I guess but is honor and duty
and loyalty and truth and don't tell a
lie right um so I couldn't in good
conscience say yes I'm absolutely coming
back I'm ready to sign those commitment
papers I'm like I need a minute like I
got to I got to take care of what I got
I got to take care of what I got to take
care of here. Yes, I'm coming back but I
can't give you that answer right now.
So, you know, a couple of weeks go by
and then it becomes
all right, we need to know. And I'm
like, I can't commit to you right now.
This is we're still a year away from
that. I can't commit to that. So,
ultimately, it was like I guess I'm not
coming back. If you need an answer right
now, the answer is no. And I
if I were doing it today, I might have
fudged that a little bit and been like
absolutely I'll sign wherever you need
me to. Thinking like, you know, in the
latigious world we live in, I could
probably back out of this if I
absolutely positively needed to. Um
because I was not in the military at
that point, I was just a civilian. So me
signing a signing commitment papers. I'm
sure there are people even now that
sign, you know, you could go down to the
local recruiter's office, sign your way
into into the Marines or Navy or Army,
Air Force, wherever, and then have
second thoughts, you know, two weeks
later and say, I, you know, I quit. And
they may not be happy about it, but
they'll let you out. Uh, I would, I
would assume they're not going to put
you in jail or or force you into boot
camp or something. So anyway, so I went
to Mississippi State for two years. Um,
that was fun. you know, I got got the
discipline and the leadership training
in Annapolis to kind of make me grow up
running my dad's business. I grew up. I
thankfully I already had a lot of that
maturity. Um, coming back to Mississippi
even though I was 20 at the time. Um,
ran his business, turned it around. My
mom retired at the end of that year. So,
I kind of segueed her into running the
business. And again, we made it more of
a retail thing where she, you know,
showed up and and made sure everything
was stocked and ran the cash register
and talked to people all day and just
had a had a pleasant time. And it gave
her something to do every day because
all the kids were out of the house. So,
she was in a fairly big house on two
acres of land. And eventually, as
happens with everyone who loses a loved
one, like the the friends and family
come by for a while, but eventually they
have their own lives and they stop
coming. So, her running the store gave
her something to do where she didn't
just sit at home and and and feel lonely
or anything like that. So, it worked out
well in that aspect. And of course, I
was still around and still there
helping, but I wasn't there on a daily
basis. I went to Mississippi State and
had fun and was a party, you know, was a
I'll say I was going to say party for
two years, but certainly did my fair
share and and greatly enjoyed being in
college. Um, but ended up with a degree
from Mississippi State as opposed to
going back to Annapolis, which took me
on a on a very different track obviously
from being a career. Uh, I wanted to be
a SEAL. You know, I was on on that track
in Annapolis. Um, and was doing
everything right to to go down that road
and then of course life got in the way
and um, I took a detour and um, ended up
at Mississippi State and life, you know,
that was my last stent directly in the
military.
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for full disclosures. What degree did
you end up with?
a business degree. Um, Bachelor of Arts
maybe in business administration. I
don't know. It was I didn't even go to
graduation. Like I I appreciate the
degree. I love the business school. I've
worked with the business school. I've
given speeches at the business school at
Mississippi State. Love the faculty over
there. But at the time, I was I had
already started my own business. I had
been running my father's business. I
started another investment business. I
was very much an entrepreneur. again had
been an entrepreneur since the fourth
grade I think. Um even through
Annapolis.
So school at that point I realized
really quickly um you know my first week
there like the tests
were com comparatively now um to
Annapolis
were
I'll say politely not challenging.
though college was fun and the degree
was just okay I guess I have a degree
now like I can now show that I've
completed something but I was running my
own business and not applying for jobs
um and not I I had great grades but just
because I work hard you know if I put my
mind to something I want to do the best
I can in it so but the hurdle was low so
I didn't have to put in 20 hours of
study for one test I'd put in you know
20 minutes of study
two hours of study, something like that.
I mean, it was a full, you know, college
curriculum. No, no disrespect to
Mississippi State, but comparatively
from what I had been in, you know, it's
like
going from this is not a good analogy,
but it's a it's you can appreciate the
distance. It's like going from a maximum
security to a to a prison camp. like
it's vastly different situation and the
prison camp is going to feel vastly
easier than the max security, right? So,
that's kind of how it felt. Um, so the
degree, the fact that I had a degree
wasn't ultimately hugely important to
me. Like I said, I didn't even go to
graduation. I mean, my mom knew I
graduated, I guess, but nobody made a
big deal of it. I didn't have a
graduation party. Didn't get a cap and
gown. Didn't take the pictures or
anything like that. I just kind of like,
yeah, let's just check the box. I'm done
with that. Now I can go really be an
adult, which I was already an adult. I
was already, you know, doing everything
a 30 or 40year-old would be doing um in
the world of running businesses and and
acting like an adult. also having a hell
of a good time at Mississippi State
doing the whole college party scene
because I'm 2021 22 at this time, but at
the same time had my feet kind of in the
real world, the the
adult world and the college party world.
And that's kind of, you know, we'll get
into the the career, my career, but all
the way as far back as I can remember,
it's always been a little bifurcated.
I've always kind of had feet in in two
worlds.
Um, you know, growing up,
I was was always in the accelerated
classes and the AP classes and and just
I just wanted to be there. Like I just
wanted the challenge. Um, I didn't want
to be bored. Uh, and I but I was also
playing all the sports. I was a huge
kid. I've been like this size. I'm not
no joking. my friends my that I grew up
with if they see this and and I hope
they do
>> [snorts]
>> um they'll be like yeah Mike was like
six feet tall when he was like 11 years
old um and I'm 6'1 now so I grew a
little bit more but I was a giant kid
very early um heightwise
so I just for when I was you know an
adolescent I just dominated most sports
just from sheer size so I dominated the
basketball court because I was a foot
and a half taller than everybody
Um I, you know, was good in the other
sports just because of my size
advantage. And I do remember like
eventually in high school all these kids
who I used to tower over caught up to
me. And now I'm like average size or
even a or even short. Like I remember I
was in line to not to circle back to old
old parts of the story, but I remember
being in line at the cafeteria in high
school and one of my best friends was
behind me. And I remember just our whole
lives, you know, when I when I would
turn to talk to him, this is how I would
do it. You know, o look over, look down.
This is how I talked to everybody my
whole life. And I remember I turned I
like forgot my money or something. So I
was like, "Hey man, can I borrow
What the like?" He's now like 6'3. So
I'm looking up to him and I'm like,
"When did you how did you get taller
than me?" Like and I look at him, he's
bigger than me, too. And I'm like, "What
the what the heck happened here, man?"
Like everybody caught up. Which is again
another reason we were good in sports
because we were just stacked with pure
athletes who again had great coaches.
And you put that combination together
and and and we were very happily uh
dominant in in many ways for many years.
Not dominant but very very good. But
again had those had the you know I'm in
the in the classes with all the smart
kids with the guys who were winning Teen
Jeopardy and you know things like that
um who are going to all these academic
competitions and just crushing it. And I
couldn't do any of that one because I
didn't I was I was a kind of a nerd and
a geek and smart, but I wasn't that
smart or that big of a geek honestly.
And God love them. Like they they loved
it and ate it up and just dominated it
and and the teachers that that ran those
things are just phenomenal and and we
were all extremely proud of them. But I
wasn't dedicated being that smart at
that time. I wish I probably had have
been because I would have done better
than [laughter]
but uh I was you know had the other foot
in a athletics and in sports and really
that's where I really really wanted to
excel. So you know I would go from the
my every day from
seventh sixth seventh grade all the way
through graduating high school I would
never see my good friends except maybe
at lunch or chorus. I was in chorus,
too, which thank God uh for for a couple
of guys who were a little bit older who
went into chorus who were were jocks who
were football players who made it cool
to be in the chorus because all the
good-looking girls are in chorus. So,
all when it came for us when it came
time for us to go to high school, like
all the jocks or not all the jocks, but
several of my good friends joined chorus
and we were great in chorus. like we won
national competitions and things. A big
reason for that was was we had six feet
tall big football players who could who
could sing bass parts. Uh and most coral
programs at other schools didn't have
those big testosterone weightlifting
guys who could hit those low notes and
stuff. So I think that helped and we
certainly had great uh we had great
sopranos. Oh my god. Um, but the the
entire chorus was phenomenal. But I'm
glad we could contribute a little bit of
it. But we all join chorus because the
good-looking girls are in chorus and and
a couple of other guys set that
precedent. But I so I would see a few of
my friends in chorus, but I in the
academic classes I I would never see my
friends. Then I would go to to practice
at the end of the at the end of school
and see all my friends. So it was it was
very bifurcated experience where my
whole day was in one world and then it
would go to another world and then on
the weekends it would it mostly be with
the jocks and the and the guys out
running around having fun. Um but
that
seemed that bifurcation and kind of
living in two worlds simultaneously.
That precedent, I think, was set pretty
early in life to where it was very
comfortable for me to do that and to
kind of have that chaos and manage that
chaos of living in two worlds and kind
of living two separate lives because I
didn't go into my jock friends and start
talking about
Fibonacci sequences and and uh fractal
math and things like that, of course.
And I didn't go into the academic
classes and talking about a cover two
coverage and running uh button hooks and
we're going to dance like this when we
get in the end zone this time or you
know we're going to do this trick play
or or [snorts] let me tell you how I
changed my grip so now I can go to the
opposite field better and you know when
I get a pitch on the outside corner like
they don't care they don't understand
that. So very different conversations
not a different person. That's one thing
that's kind of helped me is that I've
I've in my core I'm the same person but
I can speak different languages speak
all speaking English at this time but
speaking
to different groups and being
comfortable in different groups which
served me very well as my life
progressed.
>> So what career did you end up getting
into after college? So when I was in
college, um beyond uh now helping my mom
run my father's store, I started uh
investing in real estate. Um I knew that
I was going to start some sort of a
business even if I, you know, stayed in
the Navy or Marine Corps. So I I
remember right when I turned 18, I got a
credit card because that was the
earliest you could do it. I don't I
don't know if it still is, but to start
building my credit score um just to have
a credit card just so I could start
building my credit score. So by the time
I was 21 22 or I guess 20 um I had you
know had a couple of three years or I
had two years of credit and had made
some money from running my father's
store because I was living at home with
my mom.
Uh my dad had left the us three kids
where he left a little bit of money to
my mom. nothing, nothing.
She, you know, she didn't become a
millionaire or anything, but she had
enough to not have to stress out about
anything. Paid off the house. Um, gave
us three kids, a little bit of money.
So, I had a little bit of a nest egg,
not a lot, but a little, a few thousand
dollars. And so, kind of knew that I
wanted to be a real estate investor. And
especially when I first went to
Mississippi State,
we I lived a buddy of mine kind of
picked where we were going to live and
we lived in the coolest part of town uh
for the for the students, you know, for
the for the uh Mississippi State
students.
And we lived in this little shoe box,
two-bedroom, one bath place in a very
cool area called the Cotton District.
Still there, still very cool, maybe even
cooler now because the town's grown
around it, but uh very great location.
And we were paying at the time what felt
like a ton of money.
And I only saw my landlord. We would
actually drop off physical checks. This
is, you know, long before PayPal or
Vinmo or even paying bills online or
anything. So I would drop off a physical
check to my landlord once a month for a
big amount of money to me right in
Mississippi as a 20-year-old, 21 year
old. Um, and I thought this guy and he's
just sitting in his office doing
nothing, accepting checks. There's a
line of people out the door every day
because he owned a ton of property.
Uh there's just a line of people out the
door every single day of the week to
drop him money to give him money for
sitting behind a desk. I was like, "This
is the job, man. I got to get into
this." So I did. Um they built a new set
of town houses, um which at the time
felt a little sort of on the outskirts
of everything, but now it's like right
in the middle of everything as towns do.
the town grew around it a little bit,
but I I went and looked at them and they
had four left and I was like, "I'll take
all four."
And they were like, "Hold on, hot shot.
You know, you're 20." And I was like,
"Here's my game plan." So, I go to the
So, I I tell the construction crew that
or the the developer. Um, he's like,
"Hey, great. Like, I'm sold out. Like,
you take the last four. Good." My
thought was, I'll live in one. I'll it's
two-bedroom, two-bedroom, one and a half
bath uh was the one I wanted to live in.
So, I'll live in one. I'll get a
roommate, he'll pay me, and I'll rent
out the other three. And the math on it
was like, I'll live for free and maybe
have a little bit extra, you know, every
month. And so,
that's what I did. And I went to the
bank. I went to the developer and I was
like, I want them. He's like, great.
Like, you know, let me put your money
where your mouth is. let me let me see
if you can do it. And you know, we're
talking six figures into this for four
of them. And I didn't have six figures,
but I had a little nest egg. So, I went
to the bank. I had enough for a down
payment on all four. And I went to the
bank and I was like, I need a loan. And
they're like, "Yeah, see you later,
child." Um, but again, I'm like, you
know, my size now. Like, I'm I'm a grown
man. I'm 6'1, you know, at this time
probably because I'd been I was medical
red shirt at Mississippi State. I was
playing football, but um you know, I've
been been in the in the athletic weight
room, so I was probably 205, 210, so I
was in all muscle, so I looked like a
grown man. Uh but they were still like,
"How old are you?" I'm like 21, like,
"All right, you know, come back when
you're 31 or whatever." I was like, "No,
like let's we're going to make this
work." So I just didn't take no for an
answer. in a small town, small banks,
you know, you build relationships, you
kind of show them, prove yourself
personally. Um, where Mississippi State
is is Starkville, Mississippi. At the
time, it was maybe 15,000 people max
without the college and the student
body. Um, so, you know, going to the
local bank, it was like, no, let's talk
about this. It was a little bit more, it
wasn't as transactional. It was a little
bit more let me convince you, you know,
like you see in the movies a little bit.
And then I think ultimately what kind of
sealed the deal is my mom didn't put any
money in, but she I don't think she
co-signed for with on the loans, but she
like guaranteed them somehow. So, she
was sort of kind of sort of the back
stop. And I was like, "Don't even worry
about that, mom." Like, "Yeah, I don't
need any backs stop or anything like
that." And she wasn't. She was like,
"You're on your own." But she knew
because I had saved the company, saved
the saved the sporting goods store. She
knew like I had my head on my shoulders.
So when I graduated, I had that money
and the rent had gone up a little bit
over, you know, you increase the rent a
little bit and I
I was doing a few other things to make a
little bit of money, but I wasn't
looking it it was enough to where I
didn't feel like I needed to graduate
and go start handing out my resume and
and applying for jobs right away. So, I
was just I was running my own business
um doing my own thing and uh a buddy and
I I kind of had I don't want to say no
direction, but I was like I can it was I
was uh a no a business nomad kind of
before that was even a word or a phrase
and that like I can own property from
anywhere. That's another beautiful thing
about it. Um, and as long as nothing
goes wrong, like you just take the money
in every month and you know the once a
year or couple times a year something
goes wrong, a toilet gets clogged up or
something like you handle it and you
figure it all out. But it was a great
gig. Um, because I always bought new
constructions. I ended up owning over
well over 100 residential properties
and always bought newer constructions
because less headaches, right? And as
soon as they started getting aged and
things started to break, kind of like a
car, you know, you're just like, "All
right, I'll sell this sell this thing
before I have to put in $20,000 to to
renovate, you know, the the bathroom or
$50,000 to renovate the kitchen or
whatever it may be. So, I'll just sell
it and go buy another newer property and
just keep that keep that business keep
that train rolling." Um, and it was
great. And but
one of my best friends who I lived with
for part of my time um in college was
moving to Atlanta. He was working in the
furniture industry. So he got the
opportunity to go to Atlanta. He's like,
"You want to go to Atlanta?" I was like,
"Sure, why not?" Never lived in Atlanta.
I' maybe been to Atlanta twice in my
life. But again, all the experiences
that I had had
from, you know, going to Annapolis, uh,
sight unseen, um, all the things we had
done, you know, in training and just
kind of jumping into these new areas and
just figuring it out and being excited
about that. Like I realized pretty early
on like I thrive in chaos and I kind of
like being the underdog. Like even on
the again, not I I'll stop hopefully
maybe stop talking about sports like
growing up, but as good as we were in a
lot of those sports like I always loved
it when we were getting beat. I I wanted
to win. I didn't love getting beat. I
loved when we were getting beat because
now we've got a real chance to come and
show what we're made out of to to you
know tighten up our laces, tighten up
our belts and get after it and and show
what all this extremely hard work that
we put in. And we did, man. I mean, we
worked so hard and that is why we were
so good. It wasn't that we were just
gifted with great athletes. We had our
fair share of those. But we all knew
the work ethic that our coaches and and
whole community instilled in us meant
something that there are benefits to
this. There are rewards for this. And
those rewards are state championship
trophies and rings and leather jackets
and college scholarships and major
league baseball contracts. My best
friend growing up got drafted uh first
round by the New York Mets that year.
again, huge deal. Um, it that actually
was a huge deal. That stuck like he he's
still kind of famous for that. Um, he
was also Elvis's cousin because Elvis
was from my hometown. But that that
helped. But phenomenal athlete, great
guy, um, extremely humble, which thank
God because that could have easily
turned him into a crazy person with all
that sudden sort of fame. Um, but
going to Atlanta, I was just like,
"Yeah, new adventure. Let's go." And I I
was there with my buddy and I knew other
people that lived there who had come
over from Mississippi State and who had
graduated before. So, we had a very
small group of people that we knew. So,
I was like, "Yeah." And he and and my my
buddy had lived there as a kid. So, he
kind of knew the lay of the land a bit.
Um, so yeah, I moved to Atlanta and was
kind of just doing still doing my thing.
I was looking for new properties to buy.
I was, you know, just just uh running
the math. Um, actually was gambling at
this time, betting on sports. And that
was really where the the finance and the
the math really came into it. So I
minored in math in college. I've always
been kind of a math guy. um statistics,
probabilities.
So, it was easy to kind of turn that
into sports. And when you go to college,
I mean, it's like I wasn't in a
fraternity, but all my friends were were
in fraternities. And fraternities are
just giant betting parlors, you know?
It's just like back then, nobody was
really gambling. Well, we did we had a
casino an hour away that that we would
go to, but it was more just sports
gambling. So, you know, betting on
football games on the weekends. So, I
got into that, learned by by fire, you
know, lost lost plenty of money, but
made plenty of money. Just figuring it
out. Um, playing the probabilities,
seeing where the lines were off a little
bit, as as I determined that they were
off. Uh, which, you know, humans are
notorious for seeing patterns where
patterns don't actually exist. You see
that in the stock market and and
everything in the world. Any kind of
trend, is it really a trend or you just
making it a trend? Because that's what
we're predisposed to see. and you just
really really really want it to be a
trend. So suddenly it becomes a trend
and then that becomes not to go off on a
tangent on that but that becomes a
self-fulfilling prophecy. If enough
people think that well then it does
become a trend and the probability uh is
correct. So it's it's fascinating when
you when you dive into the math of it of
the way that's the way the world works
now
coming back on point. Um, so yeah, when
I went to Annapapolis, or excuse me,
when I went to Atlanta, I didn't have a
full-time job and I wasn't looking for
one.
>> What year was this when you're in
Atlanta?
>> I moved there in the in 1998.
So,
yeah. Um, and it was awesome. This is
the Super Bowl came to town in 99 or
2000.
The town kind of changed after that. And
then 911 of course changed a lot. Um but
yeah for a couple years there it was
good.
>> So now how does this journey lead you to
the CIA?
>> So
when I went to Atlanta
um in the summer
I got a call I had my because I had my
own business. This is again we had cell
phones but nobody really had cell
phones. Not like we have today in our
pockets. Uh,
I had my own line in my room. So, we
live in a two-bedroom, two bath
apartment when I when I first moved
there. So, that phone never rang. I
would use it when I would call out just
for some privacy and, you know, had my
own answer. We had answering machines
back then and things. So, had my own
answering machine. Didn't have to bother
my roommate with anything. He never
picked up in the middle of an important,
you know, business call or anything like
that. So, I had my own line. That phone
never rang. One day it rang and I
answered it and I thought it was a
telemarketer.
I said, "Is this Michael Wayne?" I was
like, "Yes." "Do you live at so and so
and so and so?" "Yes." And I asked a
couple more questions and I was I mean I
was this close to being to saying,
"You're doing a really horrible job,
man, of selling me whatever you're going
to try to sell me. Like you haven't even
like you're fourth or fifth question and
you haven't even mentioned your product
yet." I didn't say that. I was on the
cusp of it, but uh it was a guy from CIA
and he was like, I'm and he didn't say
that. He was just like, this is so and
so. I work for an agency. We we have
been following you. We know your story.
We know you're in Atlanta. Not not in a
nefarious way, but like in a
complimentary kind of way, like we're
kind of I'm a fan kind of thing. Like a
recruiting, you know, I'm like a job
recruiter would call you or something
like that. And this guy knew a lot. And
I was like, "This is weird." Um, because
again, I'd been out of Annapolis for two
years at this point. I'd never done
anything with any intelligence or never
been approached at Anapapolis or since
Anapapolis for anything in that world.
This guy's calling me on my line that's
not listed. Um, that, you know, that
nobody knows about that was essentially
outgoing only.
So
he said um you know we talked for a bit
and he said I work for an agency. You've
heard of us and we're you know we're
interested in having a conversation with
you if you would if you would be open to
that conversation. I was like well what
agency you know who are you talking
about? Is this like the you know
department of agriculture? Like I'm from
Mississippi but I don't know anything
about growing cotton or soybeans or corn
or anything else. Um,
but uh
I I can't remember if he said CIA in
that conversation.
He had he said something enough to where
I was very intrigued. So, and then it
was a very short jump to realizing
exactly what it was because he said,
"All right, do this. Go online." Because
we did have the internet by this point.
Um, it certainly wasn't wasn't what it
is now, but he said, "Go online. Go to
this website." And I don't even think it
was cia.gov, which is the website now.
Like you can go online, you can go to
ci.gov today and apply. Anybody can, you
know, it's not a secret or anything. It
was some back then, you know, the name
was
a sentence long, 400 characters. Um, go.
So, and print out, you're going to see
an application. Print out that
application. I can't remember if it had
a passcode to get in or not. If it did,
he gave it to me. Print that
application. fill that application out
and fax it to this number that I'll give
you. So, I had to So, that's what I did.
I printed out an application, filled it
out and it was for CIA
and faxed it in because you couldn't
upload it or what there were no real
online forms at the time. So, you had to
print stuff out and fax it. And a lot of
people don't even now don't even know
what a fax machine is. But, uh, so I
faxed it in.
Few days later, get a call.
got your Mike, we got your application.
Um, we want to meet. Okay, awesome.
What's you know what's next? So, come to
this place at this time. And it was it
was local. It wasn't like up in Langley
or or in Washington. It was in
Alpharetta, Georgia, which is just up
the road. It's like 40 minutes north of
Atlanta. At the time, it was kind of the
suburbs. Now, again, Atlanta's grown so
much. It's almost part of the city. So,
I hike up to Alpharetta. Just this
office building. No big deal.
Nondescript. It doesn't say CIA on the
front of it. Um, it's got no, you know,
cool markings that that make it look
elite or official or or anything like
that. So, you know, go to like the third
floor and knock on the door and this guy
opens it and there are two guys in there
and one there's two at the time. Um, and
they're like, "Hey, Michael. Good to
good to meet you. Come on in." really
nice, really like they were recruiting
me a little bit. Um, and of course I
knew that it was a job interview and
I'm, you know, wearing a suit and the
whole nine yards and I'm buttoned up and
I'm very millet. I've got a short
haircut now. I had short probably
shorter even then. Um, and I'm like, you
know, I'm got got to impress the hell
out of these guys. This is like this is
the real deal. This is and it's a chance
for me to get back into to serving. Like
I that calling that I had didn't go away
just because I left Annapolis. like I
had that itch and that that feeling like
I was just derailed from the life I was
supposed to be living for those past two
years. They were fun and I was, you
know, living a fun life and making money
and doing all the things I wanted to do
in that world of entrepreneurship
and just being a a young adult. Um, but
at the same time, I was like, you know,
my friends are have graduated Annapolis
and they're joining the fleet and
they're becoming SEALs and they're
becoming Marines and they're jumping out
of planes and they're learning how to
fly. uh Tomcats and F-18 Hornets and
they're turning into Tom Cruz and
turning into Charlie Sheen from Navy
Seal, you know, and and I'm just going
to Atlanta and drinking four nights a
week. [laughter]
Um and having a blast, but uh felt like,
you know, I'm not contributing that much
and not not following that call to
serve. So, this is what I'm thinking is
like this could be a chance to kind of
get back on the on the tracks to a
degree. And it's the freaking CIA, man.
Like this is this is 1998.
So nothing was going on. This is uh
Clinton presidency. Um which they had
downsized the military. The military
wasn't a big deal. You didn't see
soldiers in airports and things like
that. Like when we had to at Annapolis
when you left the first two years when
you left Annapolis, you had to wear your
uniform.
Second uh junior senior year, you could
change into civilian clothes. But so
when I was in Annapolis, my father
passed away. My grand both of my
grandmothers passed away. Um my uncle
almost passed away. He was in the
hospital with pretty serious illness.
And then my mom was in the hospital
after my dad passed away before I left
Annapolis. So I was back and forth a
lot. I was on airplanes quite a bit um
in Navy whites and in the in the winter
in the in the in the uh dark uniform,
winter uniform.
But I was, it was unusual to see a guy
in uniform in the airport back then
because we weren't at war. The only
thing we had, if you remember, uh,
Blackhawk Down book or movie Mogadishu
in Somalia was kind of all we had um, as
far as war and that was tragic. Um, and
we had Panama years earlier and in years
years earlier we had the Iraq war that,
you know, lasted a minute. Um, but that
was several years past. So, we were in a
we were in a down cycle with a with a
president who was not very pro-military,
so it was big downsizing. They were
closing bases. Um, I think the CIA was
getting downsized to a degree, which
kind of segus into the contract side of
things as opposed to going direct and
going to the farm and all that. But this
is still, you know, I'm thinking this
is, you know, this is the big leagues. I
don't know what they're doing because
the Cold War is kind of over. This was a
few. So the the wall and and and
communism kind of fell in the late late
80s. So we're 10 years out of that. Um
there's a lot of chaos going on in that
world in in Eastern Europe still where
where chaos was prevalent or excuse me
where communism was prevalent. But um
it's all it's not in the public eye. Uh
you might hear of you know some guy
bought a 100 helicopters from
Usbekiststan the other day. like that
might make the news because we had
that's another thing we had to do in
Annapolis as a freshman. You had to read
three newspaper articles a day every day
and be ready to report on them to
anybody that asked. So we'd be at at Cow
and and uh you know somebody say would
you you know what article did you read
this morning? And this is 7 am. You get
your paper at 5:30 a.m. Uh, and so you'd
have to say, I read about boom, boom,
boom, and they go, tell me about the
second, you know, tell me about the
helicopters in Usbekistan. You got to
recite like you got to remember what you
read and give an informative kind of
book report. So, you might see something
like that every now and then. Um, but
there were no wars being fought and it
wasn't the world we live in now and that
we've lived in for the past 25 years
post 911. But again, back on point, it
was still kind of like this these are
this is cool. Um, are these spies? Like
what are they? You know, you don't all
you think about when you think about CIA
is spies or all I did at the time. You
don't think about like this is a
government organization and they have
like health care and human resources and
and people that mop the floors and and
support systems and uh
the whole thing. Everything you have in
a normal government organization, you
have in CIA, but you also have the
Clandiststein side of things. You also
have the Directorate of Operations,
um,
the SOGs, the ground branches, the Knox,
the all the cool stuff that you you're
kind of you kind of sort of see a lot in
movies. Um, so that's what I'm thinking
walking in the door. So, there's one guy
that when I met him, I was like, "This
is not the guy I expected. This is not
James Bond. This is not like I don't
even think Jason Bourne wasn't out at
that point, but you know, this is not
like the elite clandestine
former Navy Seal chiseled guy. This is
just a doughboy. Uh, desk jockey is kind
of No disrespect like he was a very
smart, very nice, very great guy.
Ultimately, I knew him for a while. Um,
he wasn't like he he wasn't a mentor
necessarily, but he we he stayed in my
life there for for a while. Awesome guy,
but just, you know, wasn't a wasn't a
former SEAL, so he like he didn't need
to be a marathoner and a triathlete and
bench press 500 lb and all this good
stuff. He could ride a desk and still be
a razor, you know, still be sharp and
still cut and get things done. And the
other guy there was that guy. He was he
was cut out of the mold. And he didn't
really say much in that conversation,
but I think he was there to kind of show
me what it what it could be. Um and I
think he was a paramilitary or I know he
was he was a paramilitary guy and he was
doing all the Black Ops stuff and the
things that nobody ever knew about um
that you back then you didn't even see
it in movies. Um, now you see it more in
movies,
but
so we had a little bit of both. And that
that was an interview. Um, but good, you
know, it's the the the few jobs I've
kind of had in my life and the few
uh things where like getting into grad
schools and getting accepted to
different things. Like the interviews
for those things have always been the
easiest interviews because the people
running them know what they're doing.
Number one, they're not trying to be
[ __ ] interviewers. They're they're
just trying to to see, do you fit with
what they're looking for and they have a
pretty good idea when you walk in the
room if they're good, right? They've
done their homework. So, that
conversation was very good. It was like,
let me tell you a little bit, you know,
about it wasn't about like, here's what
we do. Let me tell you some secrets, you
know, and I knew that. I didn't ask. And
that would have been very stupid if I
had, right? They would have been like,
yeah, this guy's not cut out for this.
He's asking us about secrets.
>> Yeah. Tell me who killed JFK. Exactly.
Um, are there U are UFOs real? Yeah.
Uh, but it's a very good conversation.
Um,
yeah. I'm trying to think of like was
there anything that makes that one stand
out other than the general experience?
And the answer is no. I left it thinking
that was good. I really want to do this.
I really want to see what the next steps
are because it's they don't tell you.
It's not like when you go work for IBM
or something of like you're you're you
know we're going to move you to to uh
Dayton, Ohio and you're you're going to
work for this guy and you're going to
have three co-workers and this is going
to be your cubicle and whatever. It's
not like that. It's just like they they
just kind of tell you the next step.
>> But do they tell you why you on that
first meeting?
>> Yeah. Um and that was everything kind of
we we've talked about. I I had done well
in a in a grand scheme of things at
Annapolis. You know, I wasn't the best
student, but I was a decent student,
solid student. I was very good
militarily. Um, I was a good shooter. I
could scuba dive. I had my scuba diving
license. I skydived. I snow skied. I was
comfortable in the water. I was
comfortable on a mountain. I was
comfortable in cold weather. I was a
good leader. I was on an honor board at
Annapapolis. So, I had that leadership
and that trustworthiness.
>> oh, so there was some type of list
probably.
>> Yeah, they then they knew this
>> from that school
pro. Yeah, there had to been something,
right? Or like
>> why is this guy leaving and oh, he's not
a piece of [ __ ] that got, you know, lied
or cheated or stole or something and got
kicked out.
>> So, I guess put it this way, had you
never been to that school, they probably
never would have called you.
>> No. Okay. Not in a million years, I
don't think. So yeah, it all started I
think just from my past at at Annapolis
and then segue into, you know, running a
business, running my own business,
showing that entrepreneurial spirit. Um,
and then just not having any ties. Like
I, again, I could work from anywhere. I
own real estate, so it wasn't a
day-to-day job. They somehow knew I
wasn't looking for a job. I had no
commitments. I had no uh fiance or
steady girlfriend or kids or anything
like that. So I was a free agent. And so
I was in shape, strong, smart,
motivated,
a huge patriot,
wanted to serve my country,
uh, and had no ties to keep me from
doing any of that. So that was like,
let's, you know, let's see if this guy's
worth his salt here. And so, yeah, that
that's what got me in the door. And then
it's you progress from there. A lot of
people get in the door, but they get
pointed toward the exit exit door, you
know, shortly thereafter or months later
even.
>> So, do you end up getting the job? What
happens?
>> So, we had a few rounds of interviews. I
got flown up or I didn't I didn't get
flown up. They said if you're interested
in the next step, uh, be in Virginia on
this day at this time. And that was kind
of part of the test. It wasn't like
here's a first class ticket and and
here's a here's a four-star hotel, a
fivestar hotel for you to stay in while
we whine and dine you and convince you
to come work for us. It was like be here
at this time. Okay, that's the that's
again part how how resourceful is this
guy? How motivated is this guy? Um how
entitled does this guy feel? Like does
he think he's a big shot? like cuz
at the time I I probably did at some in
some degree felt like a little bit of a
big shot cuz you know I own property. I
was uh had had a couple of nickels to
rub together. Um had a good life going.
ended up going up to Virginia. Not I
thought it was going to be the CIA
headquarters. It was not. It was a
little disappointing. It was just again
another just nondescript strip malls.
Not strip mall but like office building
that would be you know anywhere in kind
of small town America on the outskirts
of of DC.
Um I love DC just all the history and
the monuments and everything there. So
that's always exciting to go until I
went for my reverse profer which we'll
get to at some point. Not not
necessarily a fun trip although not a
bad trip. Um
but yeah and then had more interviews
there. I can't remember how many how
many people I met with but it was a you
know it was a handful. It was a gauntlet
kind of thing. You meet with this person
for an hour, this person for an hour. Uh
more of an interview process, more um
a little bit of let's tell you what we
do, but a little bit of like you know
can you handle this? I don't I I was
trying to think about this before this
podcast. I don't think I did a lie
detector then, but I certainly did one
before I signed anything. Um,
which are a total waste of time. We can
talk about that later. Uh, but it's a,
you know, it scares the [ __ ] out of you.
First one I ever did. And that's the
point. That's the whole point of a lie
detector. It scares the [ __ ] out of you.
And it's it's a it's a prophylactic.
It's preventative. So, if you know you
got a if you know you have to take a lie
detector test, you're less likely to do
anything that would where you would need
to lie um to the people telling you
conducting the lie detector test. Same
thing in our world now or my world now
of uh you know supervised release. It's
like well you don't drink because you've
got to take drug tests or you don't do
drugs because you got to take a drug
test and that may be tomorrow. Um, it
may be, you know, it's a random kind of
thing. So, don't drink. It's it's very
preventative to keep you to deter you
from drinking. Um, I may get drug tested
tomorrow. I may get drug tested never
until I get off of supervisor's lease,
but I'm not going to drink just because
I don't want to take the champ. So,
anyway, lie detectors are the same way.
But
from there, you know, go home and you
don't hear anything. Um, and I want to
say like I don't even think I really had
a number to call. Like I couldn't call
and be like, "Ian, where do we stand on
this? Like what's going on?" It was kind
of like you'll hear from us. And I just
kind of took them at their word and
thinking, "Well, I even if I even if
they don't like me, I guess they'll
they'll send me a rejection letter or
give me a call and say you suck or
something." Um, and they eventually did
and they said, "We would like you, you
know, to join our training." It wasn't a
job offer. It was a it was a training
offer. Sort of like going to Annapolis
of, you know, during during pleb summer
at Annapapolis, you can quit at any time
and they just, you know, send you home.
Um, and no harm, no foul. I think you
don't owe you don't have to serve. I
know that. I don't think you would owe
any money or anything at that point. Um
so you're we're inviting you to train
and you may still never make it but we
would like you to come try. So that kind
of starts and I again it's been you know
30 years so I apolog for several reasons
and my mind Swiss cheese for for
multiple reasons but
it was a series of of trainings and
almost like um
I training is the right word for it like
going to school going to class learning
learning about some different things and
and they were still what I found out
after the fact they were still trying to
figure about
themselves because this was CIA, but it
wasn't CIA. This was a contractor of
CIA.
So, it wasn't going to the farm where
I'm where I'm going to the farm to
become a CIA officer. That's what I
thought it was. And that's kind of what
when I signed up, I think that's what
the plan sort of was. And then it became
for whatever reason, the bifurcation of
it, the change of administrations
coming, the way the world was going.
This was also around the time that
al-Qaeda actually had bombed uh two
embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in
Mozambique.
Um I think this was before the USS Cole.
So the world was changing a little bit.
and Clinton was wrapping up his second
term. So then it was and again I'm not
I'm reading into a lot of things here
that I I don't have privy to. So, I'm
guessing as I go here, but you know, as
it goes in American politics, if one
party serves two terms, there's a higher
probability that the other side's going
to win again just because that's what we
do. You know, we want change every so
often. Um, sometimes it happens in four
years, sometimes it's eight years.
So, when it came time to kind of place
me, they said, "Come be a contractor."
And I don't know that I had a choice,
but I was like, well, you know, sell me
on it, right? Not, and again, it wasn't
like, you can go here, you can go here,
you can go here. It was like, we want
you to be we want you to work for this
contractor. You're going to be
effectively you're going to be
paramilitary. You're going to be kicking
in doors. You're going to be, you know,
u
taking out bad guys. You know, you're
going to be protecting good guys. You're
going to be doing all the things you
wanted to do as a SEAL. You're just not
going to be wearing an American flag
when you do it. Um, and you're not going
to uh call your mom or your girlfriend
when you're done and say, "Mom, guess
what I just did?"
>> Yeah. Could you tell anyone you were
working for the CIA?
>> Zero.
>> Not a soul. What about when you first
got called? Because you didn't you
hadn't signed anything at that point.
Could you
>> first first conversation? Don't tell
anybody. And again, I could have, but
then they would have figured that out.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, this all a test.
Everything is a test. Everything in
life, I guess, is a test if you can look
at it that way. But I in my in
hindsight, and this is what I've done as
an adult running these same kind of
things, hiring other people. This is all
a test, man. You're free to do whatever
you want. Uh there aren't it's like
being in a in a prison camp. You can
leave anytime you want. There are
ramifications for that and repercussions
for that. But uh if you want to walk off
the base, go for it, man. Um that was
true in training and to an extent true I
guess my whole career.
Yes and no. Um, I mean, it's not like
you're going to get assassinated if you
if you quit, but it's harder to quit, I
guess, once you're kind of in it and and
you commit and you start learning things
and you're read in and you get, you
know, the the uh
top secret and
that whole world is very very uh Swiss
cheese. It's not like there's one level
of top secret, you know, every you have
super ultra special top secret
privileges. there's kind of top secret
and then beyond that like that's what
defense contractors have right um that
doesn't take a that's not a huge hurdle
to clear but from then in my world
anyway you are what's called read in to
this operation or and it's it's a maze
like it's a it's a masked ball
in a labyrinth with a thousand doors and
you open one door and there are two more
and you open one of those doors and And
there are five more. So, and there all
these different compartments and it's
sensitive compartmentalized information.
If you have ever heard or you'll hear
this in movies called a skiff. That's a
a cone of silence. It's for sensitive
if I remember this right. Now, I'm now
I'm going to start to blank on it. So,
forgive me intelligence community if I
get this wrong.
sensit sensitive compartmentalized
information facility is a skiff, but
it's a soundproof room that you know
you've checked for bugs. We know this
conversation is 100% private. We know
that anybody we're on the telephone with
or the in the on the comms with, they're
also in a skiff. So, this is not there
is
0.001 001 chance that this leaks unless
one of us in this conversation leaks it
after the fact. So, but it all that to
say is
the
information is all very
compartmentalized like
honeycomb, you know, it's everybody
doesn't know what everybody else is
doing because there will be liabilities.
Even the director of the CIA doesn't
know. Um, and a lot of people, even if
you think they're red in and you start
talking about it, which you never really
do, but on the odd chance some junior
guy or girl does, like you're just like,
like, shut up. Don't I'm not read in on
that. And as interesting as it may be,
you know, who killed JFK? Tell me, tell
me, tell me. It's like, I'm not read in
on that. So, don't tell me because now
I'm on the hook for it. Now, now I'm
liable. Well, if something happens about
all this, they're going to they're going
to cast a net and I don't want to be in
that net. If I've never heard anything
about it, I can sit for that lie
detector test and say, "I don't know
anything about it." And it'll be, you
know, flatline, flying colors, like
there's no ambiguity here. This guy
doesn't know anything about it. So, um,
back on point, if I remember what
specifically we were talking about, I
didn't talk about anything, but that was
part of the process of getting selected.
And as you go through the process and as
you go through the training in the
classroom settings, it's the same thing.
It's like every kind of speech at the
beginning of it is this is confidential
information. Don't talk about it. Don't
be stupid. Um because if you talk about
it, we're going to know. And this is
nothing at this point that is going to
change the world or anything, but we're
going to find out. And you're not going
to like it when we do because at some
point you're breaching uh national
security. But even beyond that, you're
just being a dick, right? If you're
telling stuff you shouldn't be telling
tell telling and you and you said you
wouldn't. It's it's more it's more
consequential than just being a good
friend. But it's like being a good
friend. And when they say Ian, I got I
need to tell you something, man, but I
don't I please don't tell anybody. And
you say, "Yeah, got it." And you keep
the secret or you don't. If you don't,
now you're now you're not a great
friend. If you don't in this training,
you're not you're no longer a good
candidate uh to be an intelligence
officer. So, see you later. And by the
way, if you don't keep your mouth shut,
we're going to come after you because we
can do that, too, like legally. And, you
know, we'll figure out a way because as
you and I both know, the government can
certainly do that if they want to.
>> How long was the training for?
All total
from that point from
fall. So I signed my commitment papers
on 911, 2008.
Interestingly enough. So September 11th,
2008. And then
>> wait, eight years after they first
reached out.
>> Sorry. I'm sorry. 1998.
>> Okay. I was gonna say,
>> catch me on catch me on dates because I
will get those wrong. So 1998. So three
years before 911.
>> Okay.
Um, which you know, September 11th is
nothing at that point. It's my cousin's
birthday, which talk about a shitty
birthday [laughter]
for the past 25 years. But, uh,
from that point, probably about a year,
it all gets kind of blurry because it
all it all runs together as it does the
older you get. You know, life is in my
mind,
January was two weeks ago. You know, I
was in prison six months ago and I was I
was in prison a year two years ago now.
Yeah. I reported two year less a year
and a half ago. I reported in August of
2024.
And I mean I I have to think about what
year it is. Not even, you know, forget
about what month or what uh day it is.
It's like I can't remember the year half
the time. But
the real training started at the
beginning of 1998. And at this time I
had bought my own house. So I was living
alone. Um so I could I could vanish you
know for a month, two months and nobody
knew. Um again not working for anybody.
Had nobody to report to. Had no
girlfriend. Um just I wasn't out
partying on the weekends with everybody
else for a few weeks. But went to
training for about six weeks to start.
And that was training training that was
it was only 6 weeks and and I don't want
to get in hot water with any of my
operator colleagues or friends but it
was in the realm of special forces
training and that training continued
past those six weeks but it was some it
was a little it was a version of kind of
buds and true paramilitary training.
from in in CIA
uh which has their own paramilitary
training kind of subset um for for their
ground branch and and
C branch and N and uh aviations and
those guys
and
intelligence. So, it's a combination of
like military
tier one, tier two, which are like SEAL
training, Delta Force training. A lot of
those elements crammed into, you know,
six weeks. It wasn't six. It wasn't
budge crammed into six weeks. I'm not
trying to say that at all, but it was an
element of that, you know, with the
boats and the sand and the swimming and
the just the suck of it all. It's to
make you want to hate life and to quit.
That's the primary goal for part of it,
but also
I was really the only one in my training
at that time that wasn't coming directly
from military. So you had former SEALs,
you had Delta guys, you had Marines, um
you had force recon guys, you had maybe
some parers in there, you had a very few
like just real civilians like me. But
they were trying to kind of round all of
that out from a cohort perspective just
for the diversity of it because I
brought a different perspective
[clears throat]
than, you know, the SEALs and the Delta
guys who bring a slightly different
perspective, but
they're trained differently, but they're
all trained to kind of do a version.
They're all playing baseball, you know
what I mean? maybe play one's playing
small ball one day and one one's playing
big ball another day and they may
flip-flop here or there, but they're all
kind of playing the same game and that's
on purpose, right? Um, so having a
different angle and a different
perspective. Now, I had to learn how to
play their game because that's what we
were doing. You know, this is a tier one
unit that I was ultimately in, but I was
coming at it from a different angle. So,
it was hard. um much harder I think for
me than those guys because they had
already they had already been through
buds and and through the Delta training
and all that and they had served. So
they had been out in the fleet and gone
on missions and and gone after bad guys.
What few there were, you know, in 1998,
1999 and the years before that again
with the cutbacks and all that. So there
weren't a lot of wars to fight. Weren't
a lot of battles to fight back then, but
they had done some cool stuff and they
had certainly been trained to a razor's
edge. So, uh, but so I had a lot of
catching up to do on everything from
just being in I was in great shape. I
thought I was in great shape. I I
wasn't. I had to get in great shape and
I did. And that's part of the process.
And I had to learn how to be very
resilient again. Um, because growing up
with athletic training and some of the
stuff we did, it was extremely hard. And
then of course going to Annapolis, that
training physically was was pretty hard.
Um, [snorts]
but this was
exhausting in every way possible from
multiple angles because it was
physically exhausting from the military
side of things and just the ex like we
are going to break you. You know, you
are going to quit on this run or swim or
dive proofing or or proofing or whatever
it may be. Um, that's our goal. You can
quit anytime you want and you know, God
bless you. Go, you know, go work at Home
Depot. go do whatever you want to do
with your life. Um, so that was an
aspect of it and there was a the
clandistine part of it like the more of
I I think the farm aspect of it when we
weren't out just running and being
exhausted and swimming and drown
proofing and learning a few things of
you know shooting and clearing houses
and CQB and a little bit of diving. Um,
a lot of shooting. we were learning how
to be basically case officers. Um,
and that meant like,
you know, how to classroom settings a
little bit, but field settings of like
simp
over the months and over the years, but
just in this initial, this is kind of an
an initial measurement of what you're
able to do because we're going to teach
you how to do something and then you
you're going to go do it. It's not uh
we're going to teach you for six months
and then maybe you'll take a test and
maybe you'll pass and if you don't pass
you'll have another test and you know
and then you'll surprise you'll be a you
know you'll be a lawyer a doctor or or a
Claniststein intelligence agent. It was
like we're going to teach you this today
and tomorrow and then you're going to go
do it and if you don't do it I don't
know and that was part of it that you
didn't know like what's the test you
you'll see soon enough what are the
metrics I need to know what's passing
and failing this one for everything.
This went for shooting. This went for
runs. This went for dives. This went for
swimming. Um you know here's a
three-mile run. Go.
All right. What What's my time? Like
what what's my pace? What do I need to
What do I What time do I need to be?
Just don't worry about it. Just go. So,
you know, you're thinking,
"Well, [ __ ] man. It's like 8:00 in the
morning. We got 12 more hours of this.
Like, do I go all out? Like, is this a
real test or is this just a warm-up for
the rest of the day?" Um, am I trying to
run a six-minute mile here or can I run
a 10-minute mile or an eight-minute
mile? very different things, very
different fuel levels after that that
you're left with
uh to to be able to do stuff after. So,
you just don't know. So, you got to just
use your best guess. Um same thing on
everything. And and then you know some
one of the things was
after after a little bit of training it
was we're going to drive to this town
and or or you know kind of get in the
car, put on civilian clothes, get in the
car
and it' be like four of us, three or
four of us in a car and everybody did
this when not all we didn't just all
show up in a group. We'd be split up and
then sometimes even by your not by
yourself but with one of your trainers
drop you off in the middle of town or or
outside a mall and be like get home and
you're like what uh what do you mean
like they're like come back to the base
and you're like okay and they're like
and and you're like but I I don't have
anything like I don't have any money. I
don't have my wallet. I don't have my
ID. I don't have my key card. I didn't
have a we didn't have key cards or
anything. I can't get back. I probably
shouldn't say where we were. I I I can't
get through security when I get back to
where where we're training.
>> Um they're like, "Yeah, like what do you
think? What do you what the hell you
think we've been doing for the past six
hours and in in training you figure it
out? You just learned how to do all
this." It's like, "Did I Okay. and like
how to manipulate people, how to spot
people, how to you know how to do all
these different things of like
illicitation and uh
you can you can get things from people
by begging or you know you can get
things from people in different ways. So
go do that. Oh, but you can't sorry you
can't do this. You can't say what you're
doing. You can't tell them. I can't even
remember what the things were, but there
were there were rules involved
of what you could and couldn't say.
Like, you can't go up to say, you
[snorts] can't go up to somebody and
say, "Hey, I'm in a I'm in a fraternity
or I'm in a I've got a bet with my
friends that I can't get back to this
place by, you know, within two hours.
Can you can you give me a ride?" Yeah,
that's hilarious. Yeah. And then I'll,
you know, I'll I'll give you 20 bucks
when we get there or something, you
know, for gas money or whatever. you
can't do that. So, you got to figure out
other ways to do it. So, you do or you
don't, you know, people would fail those
things and you didn't know like, well
crap, I didn't get back in time or I
didn't get back at all. What's going to
happen? Am I get going to get dropped?
Um, and sometimes they were tests and
sometimes they weren't. Some So, you
just never knew. We didn't even go by
names. Um, I didn't really know
anybody's name. You didn't really
socialize. You had your own room, had
your own kind of dorm room. Um, so I
think we had at that point we had
rivers,
rivers and colors in my initial
training. So it would be like
blue Danube.
That was, you know, that wasn't my name,
but that would be my name for like two
days or a week. And then they at some
random point they'd be like, "All right,
now you're uh Black Rin, you know, like,
okay." [snorts] So, you know, they're
they're yelling at you and they've got
to like look at their cheat sheet and
they're like, "Black Ryan, what the f
are you doing?" Like, "Get your ass blah
blah blah." Um, and you're like, "God,
that black ran's getting his getting his
ass kicked." Like, oh crap, they're
talking about me. [laughter]
um, but so that was part of the training
segueing into
a little bit of
without kind of revealing too too much.
I guess it may be best to leave it
there. You learn a lot of paramilitary
stuff and you learn you you're exposed
to a lot of just what a normal not you
know what I mean by normal a case
officer kind of guy or girl would go
into a foreign country and and start
recruiting spies um and how to do like
SDRs uh like surveillance detection
routes how to hotwire car how to uh pick
a lock you know how
defensive drive or or aggressively
drive, how to run somebody off the road.
Um, really cool fun stuff, but under a
lot of pressure because you're not just
learning it, you you you're getting
tested on it at the same time. So
fun, but very chaotic feeling, very
overwhelming feeling, very high pressure
situation where you just never know
where you stand. And oh, by the way,
you're with elite operators who all want
your job, too. And you don't know how
many jobs. It wasn't like, hey, there
are 50 of you and and and we're giving
away 25 jobs. Um, I think there were
maybe 30, [snorts] 40 of us, you know,
some some people metriculate, people
bounce, people leave and get cut as you
go. You know, you you fail a shooting
test, you're gone. Um some of them some
of the I think we had a couple of couple
of all right you know you didn't you
weren't just terrible so and you just
ran like you know 10 miles or something
and all that factors into it too and
you're not supposed at that point it
wasn't you need to walk in the door as
an elite operator although we had guys
who were elite operators it's all guys
um in in this cohort
but it was you need to understand how
this world works and and and even you
need to understand your breaking points
like there's a great line that made me
love the movie the first born movie
where born Matt Damon is in a cafe and
he says to the to the his co-star the
the girl
he starts saying like I know how many
cars there are I know the license plate
of every every car in the parking lot
which that's a little bit of a stretch
but Okay, good on you. Um,
I know the guy at the counter, blah blah
blah, probably has a weapon and knows
how to handle himself. And this was the
thing that really stuck out to me. Like,
cuz that's stuff you learn like sit with
your back to the door. Sit sit with your
back to the wall, face the door. Duh.
Like, I kind of knew that before I ever
did anything in the intelligence world.
Basic kind of stuff like that. But he
said, "I know I can run I may I'm
paraphrasing here. He said, 'I know I
can run flat out for a mile before my
hands start shaking.'
And I I remember hearing that and
thinking, damn, like that is that's
legit. And I'm impressed with the
research this this movie's done because
would you do you have a guess of why
that's important?
>> No. Why?
>> How I interpret it and how we learned
it. Now, other people may have different
opinions on this. Um,
if you're hand shaking, you can't shoot
straight.
>> Oh, so if you're running from someone
and then Okay.
>> So, I know if I'm running from someone
or towards someone
and I know I'm going to have to fight. I
know from the training how far a mile
is, give or take, just in the number of
steps and how I feel and how my heart
rate is. You can, that's one of the
things kind of you learn. It's like I've
probably been I'm probably at two and a
quarter miles right now. you just kind
of inherently know that. Marathoners, I
think, know that, you know, people that
do distance things. Um, your sense of
surroundings and sense of space and and
sense of just yourself. Um, and in being
present in the moment, which is such a
yogi, spiritualistic, spiritualistic
thing, but is so important in in that
level of operating of, you know, know
thyself.
um
that I was so impressed by that because
and not everybody it's not a mile for
everybody. Some people it may be two
miles, some people it may be 100 yards,
you know, right now for me it's probably
100 yards. Um, but knowing that and
knowing, okay, I'm almost if if you know
it's a mile and you're at threequarters
of a mile and you're still getting
chased or what have you, like you know
something needs to change pretty
quickly, either you need to be in a
position where you don't need to shoot
or you need to stop and turn around and
start shooting at your earliest possible
opportunity because otherwise you're not
going to be as effective as you need to
be when the bad guys are make the bad
guys are in a car so they haven't been
running at all, you know. So um but
those things and that kind of training
and then I passed that thankfully and
then it was you know congratulations
we'll let you know again nothing and I
didn't I didn't know it wasn't like we
had a graduation ceremony it was like
thanks you're done and we knew kind of
when we were going to finish up to kind
of have to go you know go back to our
lives because most people had other jobs
and few very few people had kids and
responsibilities not many um back then
you know now you operators
like you're a great combination of of
the mix of pre 911 and post 911. From
here you're pre 911. From here you're
post 911 because you got sleeves.
So like
Dev Grew guys, Seal Team Six guys and
even SEALs and even even Marines, you
know, and and and Delta Force and and
Ground Branch guys like back then they
look like accountants
like uh so even the guy in my first
interview that I said looked like he was
carved out of, you know, the prototype
of like what an operator would look
like, he did look like that, but most of
the guys didn't. If you look at pictures
from the 70s and 80s and and 90s or
Yeah. Yeah. All of 90s for like this
Delta Forest this and Seal Team this.
Those guys they're wearing khakis and
penny loafers and carrying assault
rifles and cleancut maybe glasses, you
know, again look like accountants. And
now because partly where we've been in
the world of of where beards are the
custom and everything um and the and the
standards have become more
like wear your elitism
if you want to and you know God bless
you like so the sleeves mean something
right the being on a military base
looking like a homeless person means
you're a bad mfer right because you're
not because military guys can't look
like that or non
special operators and spec warfare guys
can't look like that. You have military
uh code, a dress code and hair codes and
all that. So now it's like the grungier
and the dirtier and the grittier the
better. Um and it's a bragging right
almost. Um and and should be, you know,
because they they've earned the right to
to wear those look, you know, look like
homeless guys and wear civilian clothes
on a military base and have sleeves and
earrings and crazy hair and long beards.
Um we didn't do we couldn't really do
any of that because I have no tattoos
and no obvious markings and there's a
reason for that. Um,
I'm I'm a there's a even going back to
the OSS and the birth of of intelligence
of the the gray man of a guy who can
come in and out of anywhere and nobody
remembers he was there. It's not because
he's a ninja. It's just because he
didn't just didn't make an impression on
anybody. So, I can walk in a room and
make a big impression and and be, you
know, happy fun Mike and I can walk in a
room and, you know, and leave two hours
later and not
make it obvious that I'm going to go
hide in a corner, but just be normal. Go
in a coffee shop for two hours, order
coffee, work on my laptop, look like a
normal everyday civilian, and I leave
and nobody knows I've been there. And
it's not like it's some magic uh wand
that you wave. Although remind me of of
of uh being invisible later in a few
minutes and I'll I'll tell you a good
story about that. But uh you're just
kind of taught like don't stand out. So
like I can't grow a beard. Like I'm I'm
like an eighth Cherokee. So that very
hairless. like I'm very I have hair but
not much everywhere. Um can't grow a
good beard. Um which I' that's been a
huge disappointment in my life
[laughter] because I would love to grow
a beard. Um
but uh so you know a in the Middle East
I stood out but I was in a I was in it
was okay. Um, I [clears throat] look
very distinctly American, which led to a
nickname that I had kind of around the
world uniquely where it became kind of
my call sign. But, um,
being non-escript was was a factor
there. But all that to say is
coming a little back trying to trying to
get back on point of when we were done
with training, you know, it was kind of
like don't go out and get any tattoos,
but also like we'll let you know
something. So, but we're not going to
let you know you we didn't have a
graduation, which would have been
awesome if we had. Uh, but again, all
part of the process and all part of like
setting expectations. Like if you're
doing this for graduation parties,
you're in the wrong game. So, uh, go
home, go about your business, go back to
your life, and we'll let you know
something. And then, so I I pass that.
They And again, all this is none of this
is we'll let you know something in two
days. It might be two weeks or two
months. So,
it gets blurry from there, frankly. But
it's more training, more classrooms,
more cool stuff like diving. Like, I had
my scuba diving, but it was licensed,
but didn't do military diving. Um, just
did that while I was in Annapolis. Um,
which was cool because we kind of got
fasttracked on that because we knew they
knew we weren't just normal, you know,
everyday civilians. We're in the
military. So we didn't have to go
through every single step of getting,
you know, all the or or we fasttrack the
classroom stuff.
What I don't know how long it takes to
get a normal civilian dive license, but
if it just if it took normally
40 hours, you know, we did it in 20 or
25 or something like that. Skydiving
similar like now I don't think if Have
you ever skydived?
>> No.
>> You should.
>> I'm too chicken. Come on.
>> I'm not going in a helicopter. I'm not
skydiving. None of that.
>> Here are the two things. No, I'm gonna
go off on a tangent for a second. So, I
worked in trauma for for about uh
pushing five years in the midst of all
this. Trauma consultant
and I worked with a lot of brain
surgeons. So, I've seen a ton of brains.
I've seen a ton of open hearts. I've
seen a ton of facial uh gunshot wounds,
car crashes, anything where the head's
involved, and [clears throat] they need
bone fixation. I've been there. If you
saw me in a hospital, you didn't want
you weren't having a good day. Um, but
one of the smartest men I've ever met
was a neurosurgeon. He was Syrian
actually.
And we were going to lunch. I I'll keep
this short, but we were going to lunch
one day
and he got a call from the O. Somebody
had fallen off a ladder, cracked
[clears throat] his head open. All
right, do this, this, and this, and
stabilize him, and I'll be there. Like,
it it wasn't an emergency. It was just
like, or [snorts] they were calling, you
know, he was on call and he figured out
it's not an emergency. Stabilize the
guy. I'm going to lunch. You know, I'll
be there in an hour or two. But like,
even if even if he was I don't want to
make this guy sound like he was sherking
his duty for lunch. Like even if he had
been there standing over the guy, it
still would have been nothing for like
two or three hours, right? So, he was
doing his job to the best possible way.
Great surgeon, very smart. And he said,
"I won't I won't do his Syrian accent
because I can't and I couldn't I
couldn't do it justice for him even if I
could do a Syrian accent." But we were
with another guy. He was also an
inventor. So, he had like a machinist
with him who made his Tinker Toys and
stuff that he invented because he
invented a lot of medical equipment. He
would invent it. he would give the
design or write it out and he would give
it to this machinist or whatever the guy
was called and he would fabricate the
prototype for it. [gasps]
So we're we're talking in the car and
and the and the machinist guy is like I
don't know you know what do you do you
fall off a ladder you crack your head
open like I mean [ __ ] that could happen
to anybody and
this guy's his name was Dr. Mahana God
bless you Dr. Muhana, if you're if
you're uh happen to hear this, if you're
still with us, cuz he was older then. I
[snorts] mean, this was 20 years ago.
But he said, "Look,
there are two rules of life, and I'm,
you know, I'm leaning in. I'm I'm
driving, but I'm like, I'm all in for
this, man." And at [snorts] this time,
I'd been a a covert Claniststein
paramilitary officer for a few years.
and has seen a lot of crazy things and
like I'm like this guy's got two rules
and I I this guy's one of the smartest
people. I'm I'm in and this is rules to
live by. This is why you should go
skydiving and riding helicopters.
He said if you if you listen to Dr.
Mahana's rules and and their rules to
live by and I kind of live by these. He
said two rules and I was like yell yeah.
He goes, "Number one, don't smoke.
Number two,
don't ride a motorcycle."
And the machinist was like, "That's it."
He goes, "That's it." He goes,
"Everything else you're just roll the
dice. You're going to fall off ladders.
Sometimes you're going to fall in the
bushes. Sometimes you're going to fall
and, you know, hit hit your head on a
brick. Um, you want to ride in a
helicopter. Sometimes it's going to
crash. 99.9% of the time it's going to
be a fun experience, right? So, you can
do that for anything anything in the
world, but um smoking, we can talk about
that for ages. Like, it is so bad for
you. I just saw that in my in that
medical world of uh not not not good.
And I think vapes, I don't know, you
know, I the I think the juryy's still
out on that, but from what I've heard,
they're even worse. Certainly worse for
your coughing. I remember in camp it was
just non-stop. I thought it was in a
tuberculosis ward because it was
non-stop coughing because as soon as you
hit that vape, you cough like nine out
of 10 people do every time they hit it.
So if this guy wasn't Everybody's doing
vapes, everybody's got cell phones.
Everybody's got vapes. All of it's
illegal. Nobody cares. Um [snorts] I
didn't have any of it because I I don't
want to smoke. Um, don't have anything
against anybody that does, even though
my dad died of lung cancer and smoked
his whole life, but I don't judge
people. I don't tell anybody what to do.
But, um, all that to say is we we should
go skydiving if if you're up for it.
>> So, what ends up happening? Uh, do you
finish training and then officially get
in?
>> So, I do. Again, no big ceremony. It's
just like you're now part of the team,
you know, we'll call you. And they did.
And it was probably about a year in
um that we started kind of doing some
stuff. I was
again not I was a contractor for CIA.
So we would get called when
and this this ran through this was the
whole time this is the whole time
period. This was after I I segueed into
into nonofficial cover work as well. But
when the military
doesn't want to get involved, the the
DoD, you know, when the SEALs and the
and the tier one, tier two guys aren't
going to get involved because you don't
want the because America doesn't want
that exposure,
they'll call the CIA
and CIA will put ground branch on it,
special operations group, director of
operations. Um,
sometimes they don't want to send those
guys in. And those are tier one guys.
Those are door kickers. Those are the
equivalent of team six, still team six,
uh, Delta Force doing the same types of
operations, just not just completely
clandestine
um, off the books. We weren't supposed
to be here. America is not involved in
this whatsoever. Really cool [ __ ]
Really
secret. Like when people like if you
look up Ground Branch, you're not going
to find much on Ground Branch. I'm not
divulging any big secrets. It's out
there. It's a known thing, but it's not
so much in the public eye. Much like
Team Six and and Delta Force 20 years
ago, people knew they were there, but
all those guys weren't everywhere
writing books and and telling their
stories. And now you have that more. So,
they get more exposure and the world we
live in with social media and
everything. That's bound to happen. Um,
I don't know many intelligence guys that
are out there. I have a good clean break
from that world. So, I don't feel like
I'm divulging anything, and I would
never divulge anything that even comes
close to a to crossing any sort of a
non-disclosure line or treason line. I
still love this country too much to to
and and love the people I worked with
too much, even though I no longer work
with them, to ever even get close to
getting anybody into any kind of
situation that would harm them or
frankly our country. Um but
so as a contractor
you have the same level of this was for
us anyway there are many contractors and
the whole game changed after 9/11 as
well but
we had the same clearance as CIA
operators
but we didn't necessarily we didn't have
all the red tape because like I said
before CIA is a is it's a government
agency.
and a lot of bureaucracy and red tape
and I need three signatures before I can
tie my shoelace and permission from
Santa Claus and the director and his dog
Walker's babysitter
uh before I can go use the bathroom. You
run into that sometimes. The the skids
got greased a little bit after 911.
Thank George Bush for that and and I do
and we all do. I think the world does
frankly or should um because he he
loosened those restrictions a lot and
allowed us to go ultimately destroy
al-Qaeda uh and and take down some
really bad guys. Of course, uh Bin Laden
at the top of that list and a lot of
guys you never even heard of, frankly,
um that I will not talk about. But
we would get the call when something
needed to be done fast or something
needed to be done that was so off the
books or so kind of out there and
unprotected that they didn't want to
risk their own guys. It was it wasn't
that it was more difficult because we
were no better than the than the ground
branch guys. Those guys were freaking
razors, you know, the best of the best.
I would put us right against them. Um,
I, you know, a lot more training than
just that six weeks. Of course, it was
just training, training, training,
training, training until I caught up to
where I needed to be to be, you know, a
junior officer because I'm still in my
20s at this point, early, you know,
young 20 22, 23, 24. Um,
as I progress, of course, but, you know,
I'm the equivalent of a lieutenant or a
second lieutenant. um
and like in a in the normal military in
like a in the Marine Corps or something.
So, junior officer, I'm still leading
guys, but um these guys have a most of
the guys had a lot more experience than
me, so I'm learning from them. I'm a
sponge in all this. Loved it. Absolutely
loved it.
But we're doing things that are so off
the books
that if we got, and this is another
reason why you would call us, if we got
caught, then who are these guys? These
guys are just some hoo-yas out with some
guns playing war playing army. You're
like maybe they're like fill in the
blank, just bad dudes that want they're
maybe they're robbing that drug dealer,
drug lord that they're trying to take
down or you know, whatever whatever it
may be. Um but we operated mostly in
western hemisphere at that time and
yeah so we you know it was I I had a
pager at that time. I would get paged. I
get called. I get paged. They'd say you
know we need you and I'd say tell me
when and where and get on a plane or get
in the car and go there. And I've always
lived in towns and this is like when
people go, "Wait a minute, Michael was
CIA. Like he worked in the intelligence
community." Like how was that? Like
what? Like if you the tumblers when I
told my sister I had to tell my sister
for because I uh put in a petition for
pardon and I talk about this in my
petition, but I've served my country for
27 years.
And she kind of sponsored my pardon
petition. And I was like, "I need to
tell you something cuz I need you to
write a letter for me and I want you to
say all the things you know, but there's
a whole another life that you don't know
about." And she was like, you know, eyes
super wide. What the heck's going on?
And then she said, you know, the things
started to make sense looking back over
the past 27, 30 years of my life. The
tumblers of the lock started to fall
into place. And one of those is like
I've always lived in a town with a big
airport. So Atlanta was great. Maybe
another reason why they recruited me
because they knew I was moving to
Atlanta. Um the biggest busiest airport
in the world. I think it still is, but
it it was back then for sure. And uh so
I could, you know, jump on a plane. I
could be on a plane in an hour and be
where I needed to be. Sometimes we would
go to the place where we needed to do
operations. Sometimes we would go other
places to train for the operation to do
what are called workups. And that might
be a few days to a week or two depending
on how big the operation was, if you're
work working with other people, how many
people are in our group, the depth of
the information that we need. Um, is it
are we going wet? Are we going kinetic?
Like were we going to pull triggers and
kick in doors and take out bad guys? Are
we just going to sit on a [ __ ] hill
and watch this house for two months with
the idea? Not two months. It wouldn't be
usually not that long. We'd rotate out,
but with the capabilities to go kinetic
if we needed to, right? So, that's why
you send us. Otherwise, you just, you
know, hire a local with a with a pair of
binoculars or something. Um, but if
things needed to go hot, we were there
to to be able to do it. And, you know,
sometimes they would. Um, but yeah, so
that's what I did for
the lives overlap and they kind of go
back and forth a little bit, but I was
only doing that until
2009ish.
So for, you know, 10 years.
>> And what happens in 2009?
>> I decided I wanted out. Um I had So
let's back up a little bit on to 911. So
I just I wanted out I actually got shot
um through from a green tip. I guess we
never really figured out what it was
when
uh
on an operation
wearing body armor like I like I showed
you outside. Um it was different back
then, you know, 20 30 years ago. armor,
body armor was a little bit different,
but um got shot in the back. I was a guy
had taken some shrapnel and I was
bending over to I was crouching to help
him and he was he was fine ultimately.
It wasn't like I was on a sucking chest
wound or anything like that. I'm glad
for him, but it'd be a cooler story if
it was. But I was I was down on him
helping him and just got popped right in
the back and uh it pierced the body
armor went in my back. Um,
so that it it didn't do major damage or
anything, but it took me a couple months
maybe to recover. You know, my my arms
and hands and stuff were kind of numb
for a while. It missed my spine by by a
couple millimeters. Could have been
really much worse. It didn't go too deep
to, you know, affect my heart or lungs
or anything. So, the body armor more or
less did it did its job, but not quite.
and again, this is pre 911, so we're not
doing a whole lot. I mean, we're doing a
lot, but it's not what it became, you
know. Uh, think of,
you know, what the world was like, if
you can, if you even have this memory,
um, you know, I've got a few decades on
you age- wise, but
pre- internet and post internet,
>> I don't remember that.
>> Okay. [laughter]
you know. All right. So, pre-self
>> pre cell.
>> Pre- cell phones. Maybe you remember a
little bit.
>> I remember my dad had this black brick.
>> Yeah.
>> Like the the brick and then in the car
with the actual cord.
>> Yeah. You had to plug it in the
cigarette lighter and stuff like that.
>> I remember that. And then I remembered
the transition to the flip phone and
then to the smartphones. Okay.
>> So, I was around for that.
>> So, all right. So, think of the like the
brick era
>> and the brick computers, the brick
laptops.
>> I remember those a little bit.
>> Yeah. My dad was a teacher and he uh had
one of those in the late 90s, early
2000s. I used to play there was only
like four games on it.
>> Without going off on tangents, um did
you ever play uh
the Oregon Trail? Was that one of the
four games? You know what I'm talking
about?
>> You'd have to describe that.
>> Oh, you would know. You would remember
it. It was It was such a terrible game.
It was hilarious. But it was such a
it was probably before your time as
well, but it was like early days of
computer um like war games if you've
ever seen that movie. Great movie by the
way. Also like all the all the
influences of anybody that kind of goes
into this world or goes into the
military all the movies and pop culture
influences um that we didn't have social
media. So those you know movies and TV
shows were hugely influ and music were
hugely influenced huge influence on all
of us growing up. But War Games was a
great movie. It's about a kid that kind
of sort of falls into some secret stuff
that he wasn't supposed to be doing.
It's a back door into NORAD and starts
launching nuclear missiles. It Matthew
Brderick, it holds up. I I made my my
sister and her family watch it few
months ago and they were like, "This is
great." And it's from like 1984 or
something. But
>> anyway, so those days um of the bricks,
but it was like that era game show or
not game show but computer game to where
the the what made it memorable is you'd
be going along and it was just very
binary like there were no great graphics
or anything. It was one step up from
Pong, which was two bricks doing this
and a ball bouncing between them. You
were playing tennis on a computer
screen. That was like the first computer
game, one of the first ever made. And
it's addictive and it was back then and
it probably kind of to a degree still
is. Uh but Oregon Trail was hilarious
because you would be going along and you
have to make decisions. It would pause
and you would have to make a decision
like Aunt Jenny's sick. Like do you stop
and help her or do you keep going
because winter's coming? And I'm kind of
making this up. I don't remember the
game necessarily because this is like 40
years ago. But I do remember randomly it
would just say game over and you're like
what the hell? like I didn't even do
anything and it would say you have died
of dissentry
and you're like 9 years old. You're like
what's dissentry?
It's like this is Civil War disease.
It's like you basically have diarrhea
until you dehydrate and die. You your
body can't hold nutrients. But it's such
a
like 19th century disease that never
happens in the first world. You still
see it sometimes like in in third world
countries sadly, but there's, you know,
you give somebody an orange and now they
don't have disry anymore. Um, it's very
curable. So anyway, that's that's the
Oregon Trail and the brick computers.
>> So 911 happened.
>> Sorry. So back on track. Um, that
changed everything. So now it's a it's a
blank check for the intelligence
community. It's like you guys knew about
al-Qaeda. You guys knew about Osama bin
Laden. He had already blown he' already
done some stuff. He had done the coal
those guys and bin Laden as their leader
had done the USS Cole. They had blown up
the embassies that I mentioned earlier
back in 98 97 98. So we knew this guy
was bad. We could have taken him out.
not my group but but CIA
again red tape and we need permission
and we got to call this guy and the
babysitter and Santa Claus and get you
know because nobody wants to take
liability nobody wants to take
accountability for it if we do something
wrong. Um when 911 happened, that all
went out the window to a degree. It kind
of came back um as we put ground forces
on the ground, like DoD, like uh
military ground forces in Afghanistan,
certainly when we invaded Iraq. Um
and of course we we were in Afghanistan
for 20 years. Is that is that right?
Yeah. Give or take 19 20 years. Um and
we were all over the world. we were
doing I mean there were bad guys
everywhere and and that that
terrorist group spawned and motivated
other terrorist groups so it wasn't just
in the Middle East you know we were
focusing before 911 mostly on the
western hemisphere and the CIA breaks up
geographies this it's kind of a mesh
network you have geographic regions but
then you also have centers like
counterter terrorism center and then you
have different directorates So you have
a director of operations and a director
of analysis and you have director of
science and technology which does all
the cool stuff and the gadgets and like
I can pull everything from your cell
phone while we're just sitting here
drinking Cokes, you know, and you don't
know it. Um really cool stuff that I'm
not allowed to talk about but wish I
could and it's just gotten even better
over the years. But
all those
centers and all those different
directorates and all those geographic
regions were separate. So SC so so after
uh you started the director said we need
to bring these things in house. We need
an analyst sitting right beside um an
officer like a a a director of
operations like a a case officer who's
out with building spy networks who's
sitting next to a target who is an
expert on finding targets for us to
shoot you know hellfire missiles from
predator drones which was a new thing
that that now they're ubiquitous but in
when 911 first happened those are kind
of just getting up and running and then
arming them with with uh hellfires was a
whole another thing of like now we have
unmanned aircraft that we can shoot
weapons from. We don't need to send
pilots into there like and they can stay
up and they're so slow like they're
they're for a few years they were
unbreakable. They like because
um if Iraq sent up planes against them
the planes are going too fast because
they're jet planes. This thing's a prop
plane. It's not much different than what
you would buy just as a as a model kit,
you know, at Walmart or something like
that or or at uh online now. It's just
bigger, but it's slow. Um then you put
weapons on those. Then you put fancier
weapons on those that have a bigger frag
radius. When we first started using
those things, you'd pop a car with a bad
guy in it and a big explosion from the
that's what you're seeing on camera.
But, you know, you'd see a guy stagger
off and and end up, you know, getting
another car, being being okay. Maybe not
being okay, but not dead, which is what
we wanted him. I mean, I hate to say it.
This they're these guys are mortal en
enemies to the United States and our
citizens. So, we want to kill them and
everybody they they know who also hate
us before they can kill us. Right?
That's mission number one. Protect
Americans. What we failed to do on 911.
but so we we um the CIA and DoD and the
contractors that worked on those things,
they they made the the
munitions tips on those more they put
more metal on them basically which is
added more frags. So when it exploded
more metal scattered and after that no
more walking away. Um, which it sounds
morbid to kind of tell that story of
like look how great this was and be
excited about it, but you know, again,
we're at war, man. These guys just
attacked our country. Um, so
it certainly to us it wasn't kill them
all, but it was kill all the bad guys
with no remorse whatsoever. And we made
every effort to do that as quickly and
effectively as we could. and we
succeeded in in many ways a lot of time
as well as thousands of other people
that worked in intelligence and then as
the military came in. So then everything
of course shifted primarily to the
Middle East. You had a little bit in at
that time in North Africa and then it
slow slowly
u it was kind of a party in the Middle
East that everybody wanted to come to.
So you especially when the military
finally got involved, the military is a
bigger organ, bigger machine to get
cranking, right? They have their fast
fast moving guys. Those are the team six
guys, the the uh the
other Clandiststein guys, you have the
ground branch guys, you have Delta guys.
sometimes they can be on scene quickly.
Sometimes it takes a few more signatures
and a few more the presidential findings
and the title 50 issues and things that
we can talk about for an hour that we
won't but
belt and suspenders type things so
nobody gets in trouble, nobody goes down
for it. um you know, Kofer Black, who
ran the CTC, the the counterter
terrorism center at 911 and afterwards
when we're going after the the Bin Laden
and his network, he said, you know,
we're all going down for this. And he
kind of said it jokingly, but he wasn't
joking. He was like, look, when when
people go to war and generals lose the
war, they shoot the generals. When
people win the war, people still shoot
the generals. So, we're going to do what
we need to do. We're going to do it
right and we're going to do it we're
going to do it as effectively as we can
and we're going to protect the innocent
and and harm the the
bad guys.
Uh and when this is all over, we're
probably going to look like bad guys
because that's what we that's that's
what we kind of signed up for. That's
what always happens to the intelligence
people because there's shadiness and you
can't tell everything you've done and
you can't be on the news talking about
all the great things you did and all the
lives you saved. So the covertness
equals
bad somehow, you know, shadow type. Oh,
if they're in the shadows and we don't
know about it, they must be doing
something bad. So he kind of
extrapolated out of that. We're all
going down for this, which is kind of my
first one of my first lessons of
like, you know, they they can get you if
they want you. Um, and you need to be
prepared for that at any given time.
Especially like if you get caught
overseas again because my team and the
and the contractor I worked for, we get
caught. We're out on a limb. Sometimes
we're in theater where we might we're
working with other groups. we may have
air support when we're actively going
kinetic and we're actively in battles
and we're actively engaging with the
enemies like you see on TV or you know
in I don't want to say war films but
documentaries and things like that where
you're calling in air strikes you're
calling in air support um which is
amazing um air support uh wartthogs that
sound a wartthog makes a wartthog is a
plane that is built around a gatlin gun
they said here's the gun we want to use
build me a plane around it and they did.
So there's this giant gatling gun that I
don't even know I can't remember the
specs on it one time especially at the
Naval Academy. That's the kind of stuff
we had to know like like that like how
many rounds it fires like per second but
it's like you know 50 rounds a second or
something crazy. just
and when you hear that as a good guy,
you're like, "Oh, baby." That's like,
you know, hearing the woman you love
tell tell you she loves you or
something, you know, like it's Christmas
morning or something. You know, it's
just raining hellfire down on on bad
guys. Um, and if it's not killing him,
it's scaring the hell out of them. So,
it's a win-win no matter how you look at
it. But, uh,
pull me back on on track there of we're
we're going kinetic. We're we're doing
different things. I got shot. 911
changed that. Um, I wanted to get out
and then when not like I got shot. I
rehab from that. We're not doing a whole
lot. I was on the way out. I I was
actually I was still running my
investment company. Um, but I was
actually uh had written a screenplay
that got a little heat in as as they
call it out in Hollywood. Like I had an
agent. I had people talking about it. I
was in all these meetings with all these
producers and studios and actors and
famous people. Um, and then 911 happened
and I'll tell you quickly. Um,
so antilimactic now because I've kind of
given away the punchline, but I wrote a
script
about terrorists from Afghanistan who
come to America,
sleeper cell,
go to the Naval Academy, which I knew,
of course, um, blow up a building, kill
4,000 people, kill four, kill almost the
entire student body of Annapolis, which
is about 4,000 people, all the officers,
all the teachers and stuff, they're all
prepare for an assembly. They blow up
the the auditorium or the gym which is
where we had our big gymnasium where you
know basketball arena where they had the
big events when the whole whole class
would go whole brigade. [snorts] Um
blow that up. The only people left are
the people standing watch in the dorm.
So they blow that up, kill 4,000 people,
and then take the rest of the student
body who are only a handful of people,
handful of students, hostage,
and in that is the president's son. In
the in my script, the president's son uh
goes to Annapolis.
So you think, all right, well, that's
wow, that's innovative. Like you, right?
You know, you just you just took 911 and
and carbon copied it. And like the first
scene from 9/11 is or excuse me, first
scene from my script is guys fast roping
down a helicopter landing in a compound
in Afghanistan. A helicopter hovering
above it, fast roping down to the roof
of a two-story, three-story compound,
black kid ited out, Steel Team 6,
basically black kids, night vision, uh,
going in, taking the compound, taking
down a bad guy. I was first scene
exactly like before the helicopter
crash, exactly like the the raid on uh
Osama bin Laden's compound. Except the
key to that was I wrote that in January
and February of 2001.
>> 10 years before that?
>> No. Uh like like eight months before.
>> No, but the raid on
>> Oh, 10 years before the raid. But even
10 years before or like you know nine
months before the Afghanis nobody knew
who nobody knew where Afghanistan was or
anything about Afghanistan terrorists
they might have heard something in the
back end of the news about the embassy
bombings but you know that's old news
but you know it was fresh on my mind
because that's what we were thinking
about in in the Claniststein world in
the intelligence world in early 2000. So
I was like, well, I'll write a movie
about this. Again, nothing. This is
everything I told you is the whole plot.
And it's up to the midshipman to grow up
kind of um to go from kind of playing
soldier to becoming soldiers and taking
lives and saving the day um and and
overcoming these uh Afghani terrorists.
But I wrote it before 911. So
one, it was, you know, wow, you wrote
that and it kind of came true.
They came to Afghanis came to America
sel blew up a building they killed 3,000
people not 4,000 but um didn't take
anybody hostage at the time but
obviously tremendously traumatic tragic
event and of course nobody wanted to
make a movie about Afghan terrorist
blowing up a building after that
happened so that
shifted that diverted my screenwriting
career and then at the same time of
course I'm getting pulled hard back into
the intelligence world. I've got one
foot out the door at this point because
up to that point again, we weren't super
busy. We were doing we were we were
doing some work. We're doing a lot of
hell of a cool training, but I'd been
shot. I wanted to go, you know, as an
entrepreneur at heart. So, I was like,
this has been great. Um, but for what
we're doing, like I want to go be a
grown-up in the business world and and
or you know, in the in the artistic
world at this point. That pulled me back
in. So, now I'm back in. I'm full
full-blown back paramilitary. The and
that whole world just expands because
the money came in and and there are more
bad guys and it's like go get these bad
guys whatever you can. So to not just
bore you with too many of those, but we
did a lot of very cool stuff. Um all
over the world, not just in the Middle
East. In in fact, like I said, it was
kind of a party everybody wanted to come
to. So, every contractor, every tier
one, tier two, every SEAL team, every
Army Ranger battalion, um, of course,
Delta and Seal Team Six, um, but all the
way down to, you know, you got the
special forces guys, the Green Beret
guys, uh, anybody with the rifle wanted
to go to that party and rightly so,
right? We because we we you're trained
to go to war. And as much as as war can
be bad, it's you want to go do your part
and serve your country and defend your
the freedom you've been, you know, born
and raised to defend and and equally as
much stand by your your comrade in arms
and protect him and carry your part and
not let him down and not let him die and
everything that goes along with that of
a of a true brotherhood.
uh and sharing that bond
is an unescribable experience. So
everybody wanted a seat at the table or
a ticket to the party.
And so we I did that for several years.
And then about 2008 2009
I thought
I'm you know I think I'm this has been
awesome but uh you know 911 was seven
eight years ago. We've taken down some
really bad guys. Um, the DoD, the
military guys are really running the
show now.
That's fine. But so we're doing stuff,
but you know, I'm I'm just kind of I
don't want to say I'm over it, but I was
kind of like, all right, you know, and
I'm in my 30s now, which is kind of
prime time for that work. But I was
like, it's time for me to move on. I
just felt it, you know, and I so I kind
of went to my bosses and I moved up in
the ranks at this point. I was like, I
think I'm done. You know, I love you
guys. I'm here to support you. You know,
I I'll still kind of work behind the
scenes do be an analyst. I kind of
segueed a little bit sometimes when
we're not hot and kinetic and do and you
know, getting shipped out. Did a lot of
analysis work. I'm, you know, a good
pattern recognition guy. I'm I'm a good
probability guy. Um,
I was like, I think I want out. And
they're like, you know, my kind of
mentor boss was like, what do you want
to do? I think I was like, I think I
want to go to grad school and and work
in finance. He goes, all right. And we
talked, it wasn't just this quick, but
it happened pretty quickly. He's like,
"All right, go do it, but you're still
gonna work for us." And I was like, "All
right, what do you mean?" And I, you
know, I never say never, and I never say
like, "What?" At this point, you're
like, somebody says something, you just
say, "Tell me more." Because it could be
the most craziest thing you've ever
heard and it happens and it comes true
and it's a real thing. Um, so I'm like,
you know, tell me more. I would love to
be a multi-millionaire and also an
operator, but I don't know that I can go
kick indoors and and run in chalks and
do CQB
uh for two weeks in a in the middle of
BFE.
uh literally uh bum [ __ ] Egypt, you
know, [laughter]
of uh
and also work in high fin, you know,
work for Goldman Sachs or whatever.
And he goes, "Well, what do you want to
do?" And I said, "I want to go back to
grad school because I was still living
in Atlanta and Emory had at the time,
and I heard this on the radio. I was on
I every day on the radio. I listen to
NPR at the time when NPR was very
neutral and very good news resource.
Um, and like they didn't have
commercials, but they had commercials.
And the commercials would be sponsors,
almost like podcast sponsors now. Um,
where it would be like the host talking
about whoever was sponsoring. And it was
always, not always, but a lot of Emory's
uh, MBA program, Masters of Business
Administration program. Sixth in the
world. Sixth in the world. These guys
are six. I was like, really? Sixth in
the world? Like there are a lot of
business schools in the world. And I
know Emry is a great school, but sixth
in the entire world, like there are
what, nine, give or take, Ivy League
schools. Not all of them have masters of
business program or NBA programs, but
still like Emory. Yeah. Come to find
out, they were ranked at that time sixth
in the world. So I was like, well, hell,
let me let me throw my hat in the ring
and see if I can get in. And you know,
it doesn't hurt to try, right? If they
tell me no, no harm, no foul.
So my boss was like, "Yeah, give it a
shot." I was like, "If I want to go work
in real high finance for like heavy
hitters like the JP Morgans, Goldman
Sachs of the world, a legit hedge fund,
which hedge funds weren't even really a
big thing back then. It wasn't in the
vernacular like it is now. Private
equity and venture capital wasn't
either. But that that alternative space
was where I wanted to focus. Not the
run-of-the-mill mutual funds or, you
know, buy Apple and hold it for 20 years
kind of thing. That's all well and good.
I just wasn't interested in it. I'm a
I'm a sprinter, not a marathoner. So,
this buy and hold mentality did not
excite me at all. So, I like more of the
trading. I like, you know, just buy at
10:00 and sell at 10:30 kind of thing.
That's trading versus investing, which
is buying and holding. Doing a hell of a
lot of research, deciding this company
is undervalued, buying a 100,000 shares
of it and holding it for five years, and
keeping your fingers crossed that it
goes up. That's investing. Buy it,
forget about it. Um, balance your
portfolio every now and then and keep
your fingers crossed. Just not the game
that I wanted to play. So, I was like,
if to get to work for somebody I really
want to work for, I'm not going to it's
going to take more than a degree from
Mississippi State. So, God love
Mississippi State, but you know, Goldman
Sachs isn't high isn't knocking on the
door for a for Mississippi State
undergraduate
certify, you know, got undergraduates
from uh Mississippi State, no matter how
good their grades were. So, I was like,
Emory's here, you know, it's an
executive program, so I can go like
every other it was like on nights and
weekends, so I could work my normal job.
I can still kind of uh do the analysis
stuff, but a big chunk of my life was
now going to be in school.
And he was like, "Do it." And I was
like, "I can't, you know, I'm not going
to be able to kick indoors. I'm not
going to be able to be a meat eater
uh paramilitary officer
um and do this." He goes, "Well, you're
going to we're going to move you over
just the basically again back to kind of
CIA parlance just to the director of
operations. You're going to be
effectively you're going to be a spy and
you're not just going to be a case
officer because you didn't go to the
farm and you're not directly with CIA.
You don't have a badge that says CIA on
it. You're a contractor. So, that's even
better. You're going to be a knock."
And I knew what that was. It's a It's a
uh non-operational cover which is very
similar to what we're doing in the
paramilitary in the in the covert
intelligence side of things in that
not to try to sound too cool but the
easiest way to explain it is you're a
spy overseas
with no cover. So, if you're a spy
working out of an embassy under a
different cult cover,
um you might be the director of
agriculture in Lithuania, right, for the
American uh you're working out of the
American embassy. You're an American.
You're the the Lithuanian
uh contingent American contingencies
under under the the chief diplomat or
the diplomat. um
uh working as the director of
agriculture or you know there are dozens
of roles. This it's this a big
organization in most of these bigger uh
embassies.
nobody rolls into an embassy even though
the the stations are based usually based
out of embassies and you have a chief of
station. He's kind of the boss of the
CIA and you have people underneath them
and those are the people that are
generally going out and recruiting
assets to spy on that country or other
countries or whatever doing CIA work
what you know kind of what the movies
talk about. Um, but if they get caught,
they can be like, "Wait a minute. I'm I
work I work for the United States. Call
my boss." Um, and they do. And then you
get like a really hard scolding and you
get turned back over to the Americans
and you get deported
when you and that's your cover. You're
under official cover. You're you're
under cover. or you're the director of
agricultural affairs or whatever it may
be, but that is your cover and it is
official. You have a business card with
the United States of America's, you
know, seal on it. You're working for the
embassy. You're working for the United
States, not as a CIA as uh officer, but
for the United States. When you're
nonofficial cover,
you're just Michael Wayne
working.
So, if I get caught, if any knock gets
caught,
you're done. You're cooked. They're
like, "You're trying to steal secrets or
you're trying to recruit assets
and uh
what the fuck?" [laughter]
And you can't I can't say no, call the
embassy. This is all just a huge
misunderstanding. I'm the director of
agriculture. and they go like if the
real covered guy could do that and they
know he's CIA but it's the we know we're
all doing this so we know you're
breaking the rules and doing some really
shifty things but um
we know that's part of the game of the
world that we live in. So we're really
pissed off but we're going to let this
one slide. Just don't ever do it again.
And you get out of it. You do that as a
knock. You don't get out of it because
that you call the embassy. Even if I
said, "No, call the embassy. I'm an
American. I I'm I'm an officer. Call the
embassy." They're going to be like, "Who
the hell is Michael Wayne? We don't know
who the heck you're talking about." Um,
and they're going to go then then
whoever name the country comes back to
you and goes, "They don't know you." And
you say, "Crap."
And then you're up shit's creek. So
that's the risk.
Um, but again, there's there are
trade-offs in that, good trade-offs in
that because
you don't have all that bureaucracy and
red tape, and you don't need 15
different signatures to go do this or
that or the other thing, and you still
get the cool gadgets, and you still get
read in on the on the operations.
Um, and you're still doing some in
incredibly awesome and effective
important
work
that I play. You know, I'm very proud of
the work that I did and my team did. Um,
and you know, protecting Americans
because that's ultimately what it's all
about. Everything we're doing is to
protect Americans.
uh and learning about, you know,
certainly plots for future 911s. And we
stopped a few. I I didn't stop a few of
those. I was part of groups that stopped
a few of those. We stopped a few smaller
things that would still be big deals
like embassy bombings and other
terrorist attacks and these groups that
are just going to go shoot up
uh you know, the
plaza outside the Eiffel Tower or
whatever. or I'm making that up that we
didn't stop anything like that. But um
you know things like that like when you
stop those things you feel really proud
of yourself and you can't you can't call
mom and be like mom guess what I did.
You can't call your girlfriend and be
like I know I haven't called you in
three weeks but guess what like it's
there's a reason for that and here it
is. But that's what you sign up for and
that's what you're training even before
you get selected and before you kind of
graduate training
they you you're
already in that mindset of you're going
to do a lot of hopefully you're going to
do a lot of things over for many years
and survive and not die not get killed
or captured and you are not ever going
to be able to tell anybody about it or
by the way you're not even going to be
able to tell anybody you were in the int
intelligence world. You're just a dude
that owns an investment company. Um, so
but when I segueed when I became that
guy,
that's I went back to grad school, got
an NBA, and my last semester of NBA
school um coincided or the last year of
my NBA programs, two-year program um
was uh the financial crisis, 2007, 2008,
2009. So, I graduated in 2009,
which is when the crisis started to end,
but nobody knew it at the time because
you have like dead cat bounces and
things go up and then they go back down
and uh it kind of the market bottomed
out in in the spring of 2009
and and slowly recovered,
but uh nobody, you know, nobody knew it
through 2009. So I was trading
derivatives and and making just with my
own money and making a ton of money from
for me. Not, you know, not millions or
tens of millions of dollars, but but the
volatility and the chaos
uh was serving me well. like it was the
same chaos like when I after 911 and
things the whole world and and the
intelligence world you know I talk about
this a little bit in in the first part
of my book of
the world became extremely chaotic after
9/11 and uncertain and nobody knew when
the next attack was coming or who even
made the attack and you know a few of us
did really quickly like when I remember
when the first plane hit I was in
Atlanta and I remember when they first
started talking about it and I'm I'm I'm
I'm guessing at this. Forgive me for not
remembering. This is horrible, but it
was like a a flight from Boston to LA,
something like it was a cross-country
flight. I think that was it. And it and
it hit a building in New York. And my
first thought was, you know, for until
the second plane hit, it was like, is
this a mistake? Was it a Cessna? There
were reports that it was a small plane.
That kind of stuff happens. Stuff like
that. somebody had run a plane into the
uh Empire State Building like 10 or 20
years before. Like it it stupid or crazy
or maybe trying to kill somebody but
maybe just on a suicide mission. Um but
every now and then something kooky like
that happens and and people die
unfortunately, but it's not it's not
they're not taking down buildings,
right? But when I heard about a a jet
airliner full of fuel that because from
Boston to LA that's a full tank, my
first thought was that's a bomb. We're
under attack.
[ __ ] We're going to war. Um, and
there's a mixed there's mixed thought in
that, right? is
this is horrible,
but it's time to [ __ ] go and it's
time to show what you got and it's time
to man up. And whoever did this
just [ __ ] signed their death warrant
and I get to be a part of it and I'm
extremely
excited about that.
You know, there's a there's a great
quote from a probably a guy that's
remembered in history as a bad guy, but
it's Roberty Lee. a general for the
Confederate army. He said, "It is well
that war is so terrible or let me I'm
blanking on it actually. Let me think
about it.
It is well that war is so terrible or we
should grow too fond of it." Yeah,
that's a powerful quote because of all
the things I talked about a few minutes
ago of of why warriors want to go to
war. We want peace through deterrence.
We want to protect innocent people. But
when the time comes and it always comes
since human were became humans, um since
Cain killed Abel or we evolved from
monkeys or whatever you want to believe,
we are warriors and we will go to war.
and so when the time comes and you can
play a small role in that to help defend
the defenseless,
I want to be there. and and
you know that 911 solidified that and
also gave me you know the first taste of
kind of what I the the stormcraft
doctrine that I developed over the next
20 years of just of leading through
uncertainty and and converting uh chaos
into into advantage of like we don't
know what the hell's going on. This is a
chaotic situation. Okay, let's take a
step away from this. Let's go through
these steps and figure out what can we
how can we use this to our advantage.
This is crazy and people are freaking
out and there's so much tragedy. But
that creates gaps and we can exploit
those gaps. It's going to create new
dangers, but it's going to create new
opportunities. And we can seize those
opportunities because now, you know,
this happened, so this is unprotected or
that's unprotected. So now this person
is doing moving over here and this
country is more concerned about X. And
and before then they were concerned
about Y. So now they're exploitable in
in Y where before there was no chance of
exploiting that. again, all in the realm
of like we're going to do the things
necessary to protect Americans and
protect America.
So that was the birth of of Stormcraft
and I certainly used that um through the
paramilitary training and then going
into the knock training or excuse me
going into the knock world and more
training involved in that too but it
kind of you know over the years I'd
already been working for 10 years in
that world so it was an easier
transition but going into those very
it's it's a very shadow the true shadow
world of international espionage
It's you're meeting in,
you know, dive bars and dark back alleys
and doing handoffs and doing uh
detection route,
you know, twohour
diversions and all the kind of cool
stuff that's also a lot of sometimes
very boring, but doing important things
and learning extremely important
information. You're not kicking doors in
every day, but you're you're getting
information that's going to prevent the
doors from needing to be kicked in
because you're taking down those sales
and those people before it ever gets
that far. So, I did that and while I ran
my hedge fund. So, I ran a legit hedge
fund. Um, my hedge fund investors had no
idea that I was working as a knock. Um,
I created derivatives. Uh, had a very
good strategy. I made a lot of people a
ton of money. Um, it grew into being one
of the most successful hedge funds in on
Wall Street in the in the industry. It
was still never it never grew to be very
big for multiple reasons. One is I
wasn't out I was trying to raise money
because that's what you do as a hedge
fund manager. And that also helped me be
a good knock because I could travel the
world and talk to investors and moneymen
and uh directors of sovereign wealth
funds and people in government and
retirement funds and things that people
that knew uh the inner workings of
governments and things like that. But
and I could also go into those same
meetings and ask those questions instead
of having to recruit you who works for
the sovereign wealth fund to spy on the
government for me. I can just go in and
ask the same questions because I'm a
hedge fund manager and I want to know
that stuff for my investment, for your
investment, for the decisions that I
make as a hedge fund manager and they
didn't know if I needed the, you know,
those answers or not to make money. Um,
but it made sense that I was asking a
lot of those questions. And it also gave
me entree into the world to meet all the
bad guys that I wanted to meet to take
them down and to stop the rat lines and
arms race and non-prololiferation
uh things that we were doing. Um, and
human trafficking and drugs and you name
it. just all the bad stuff in the world
needs to be stopped, but it's hard to
stop because of all the red tape and
bureaucracy and things like that. So,
people in the fringes and people in the
shadow world can get those things done
uh quickly and effectively and
disappear. We're ghosts and it's
wonderful. And and you understand, well,
you can't tell anybody about it, but
that's what you sign up for. So, none of
my investors knew. Um, the ones that see
this will probably be surprised, but
they're all going to be happy because
they all made money. Um, my hedge fund
investors made money.
And
I ran the hedge fund right up until I
got convicted. I started my nonprofit um
in that same realm. Um,
yeah, grew the fund, grew the assets
under management to over hund00 million
average. had two funds. Uh one was
extremely successful but extremely
volatile. That was the one I I started
that in 2009.
Uh I realized a year two probably not
even that long within a few months that
investors love great returns. They love
70% returns. That fund I was making and
again this is coming out of the
financial crisis when there was a ton of
volatility. So I'm using my Stormcraft
training left and right of just I'm
loving it. Vol more volatile the better.
market crashes, sign me up. Because we
made more money when the market crashed.
It was a very contrarian strategy. Uh
reversion to the mean. Um a lot of
fractal math, a lot of Fibonacci
incorporating a lot of different
indicators and a lot of different math
components
to deter determine inflection points in
the market. traded the S&P 500 as a
whole as one aggregate the ticker symbol
S&P and the the E- mini that went along
with it. Um futures contracts not to go
dive into but like even what I've just
said is a is a good explanation of why
it never became a big fund because that
world gets very uh complicated in
language. You're literally you've heard
the phrase that's Greek to people saying
that's Greek to me. just literally Greek
because all the things that have to do
with options trading are in Greek. So
you're talking about deltas [snorts] and
alphas and gamas and betas um and how
all those interact with each other and
to the normal investor no matter very
smart investors but if they're not
experts in derivatives and you start
talking about how you have a competitive
advantage because the gamas affect the
deltas and we neutralize the deltas
because we do levered levered uh ratio
calendar verticals and we hedge that on
the with e- minis on the near date
expiration and and then shades come
down, right? And they're like, "That's
awesome, man." Like, it sounds like you
got it nailed, but you leave the room
and and they're like, "What the [ __ ] did
he just say?" And then they end up, you
know, giving writing a $20 million check
to like another fund manager that comes
in and says, "All right, we're going to
go long Google and we're going to short
Apple and here's why." And the investor
can say, "Oh, yeah, okay. I have an
iPhone and I use Google a 100 times a
day. So, I understand what you're
talking about and I can understand your
argument of why you're going to short
one and and why you think one's going to
go down in price and why you think the
other is going to go up in price. That
makes more sense. And I've got to go
explain this to my investment committee
tomorrow
and whatever Michael's talking about
sound sounds really cool and his returns
are off the charts. Great. Uh but he's
it's it's volatile and there's no way
I'm going to be able to repeat this to
my investment committee. So you know I
would say well let me talk to your
investment committee. Well most places
were like no you can't do that. Like we
don't we don't allow fund managers into
those meetings. So that things like that
as well as just the the knock work kept
it from being as big as I would have
loved it. I would you know would have
loved to been the biggest hedge fund on
the planet. Um it was scalable to that.
The strategy was sound. The first first
fund was very successful. I mean the
average returns were over 50% net a
year. Um which is you know that's world
that's uh you're in the hall of fame.
You're in the hedge fund hall of fame
for that. Maybe the all you're the
Michael Jordan if you do that for 20
years. Um but the volatility was crazy.
the you know we would lose we would make
20% in a month and we would lose 15% the
next month and the the wins outpaced the
losses but the volatility made people's
stomachs turn so I realized early on and
should have probably pivoted a little
bit earlier but I didn't kept that fund
going just because we were making so
much money and I had my own money
invested so I'm when we're making 50%
returns I'm making 50% on my money so
you know my $5 million is turning into
$7.5 million in a year. And then you it
just keeps on compounding. Greatest
force in the in the universe is is
compound interest. And you turn that
into 50% returns on with the interest uh
percentage mark. That's legit. Super
legit. But the second fund I started in
2016 and that's when I became more New
York focused. it had much less
volatility which institutional
investors, the big big institutions, the
sovereign wealth funds, the teachers
retirements unions, um the the giant
family offices,
and of course high netw worth
individuals and investors,
but they love the lower. They're willing
to sacrifice the great great returns for
pretty good returns. And we still had
out we outpaced on returns. We still hit
like 20% a year, which is still one of
the best in the world, especially over
time. If you can do that year in year
out, we're hitting 20% when the market's
down 5% for the year. That's a pretty
good spread, pretty good gap that people
love us. Other years, the market's up
20% and we're still hitting 20% and
we're just kind of like, okay, you're
average. Well, no, we're consistent. You
know, we're hitting singles and doubles
consistently with low with very few
strikeouts with very low volatility
and making more money when the stock
market falls than so not to go down an
investment road, but that's very
appealing to to especially sophisticated
investors. It should be appealing to
every investor because you don't you
want diversity in your portfolio. when
one thing goes up or when one thing
crashes, when the market crashes, you
don't want all of your investments to
crash because you can go broke that way.
You want a few safeguards in there that
either they stay flat, market crashes,
we hear 911 crash, uh 2008, 2007 crash,
the whole world's coming to an end, the
market's down 30%.
here are one or two or 10 investments or
some some percentage of your entire
portfolio that haven't crashed. They're
holding their own or even better,
they've gone up, which is what we did.
So, when the market crashed, people
loved us. When the market did really
well, we were just, okay, you did, you
know, congratulations, you did the same
thing everybody else did. Annoying, but
you know, I'll take it. Um, but we're
helping individuals make money and my
investors loved us, but I, you know, I'm
also managing money for retirement funds
and teachers unions and things like
that. So, my my parents started out as
as school teachers. All my entire
extended family, my my both my sisters
are school have been one still is a
school teacher.
So, you know, knowing that I'm making
money and helping to to making money for
those uh institutions so they can pay
their teachers and not go bankrupt in
their retirement accounts uh 10 years
from now, five years from now because a
lot of those retirement funds are still
struggling, especially when the
financial crisis because they're
overlevered and they're not diversified
and all the things you don't want in an
investment portfolio. But that's another
conversation.
in that, so I I did that until um until
I plead guilty. Um and in that mix,
I went back I went back to school. I got
a master's degree from Cambridge in the
United Kingdom. Um I've done a program
at uh at Oxford and also in the UK
and started a nonprofit during that
time. It kind of came out of a of a I
started a society at at Cambridge
and the nonprofit I started in the
States was a kind of a bigger better
version of that. But it was it's called
Oasis. It's the it's an acronym for uh
don't let me butcher this as I say it
out loud. I never say the whole thing.
Organization for active social impact
and sustainability.
Yes. Um, Oasis,
we do disaster relief. Uh, so when a
tornado, a wildfire, a hurricane,
anything like that hits in the states,
we're one of the first boots on the
ground. Again, my Stormcraft training of
being very comfortable in chaotic
environments. When you roll into town,
you know, 20 minutes after a tornado
blows through, it's very similar to a
war zone. Uh, this house is gone. This
house is untouched across the street.
It's crazy. But you got people wandering
down the street because their house is
gone. Like where do they go? What do
they do? What's coming next? Uh very
uncertain, very scary time. And you
know, I learned over the years like I
want to be the one that's there on those
people's worst days because I can help
them better than most people because I
have a game plan to manage this chaos
and to see the advantages that it
presents us. Even in a very tragic
situation, there are ways to manage it
and and often there are often very
oftent times ways to convert that into
an advantage. But that is what working
with Oasis is natural disasters in the
United States and what quickly became
man-made disasters overseas which are
wars. So when Russia invaded Ukraine in
2022,
I went to Ukraine and volunteered over
there taking humanitarian supplies to
the people because civilians still lived
in the war zone. The war in Ukraine was
and still is. It started more on the
northern border and on the eastern
border, but it very quickly just became
kind of the the entire eastern border of
Ukraine. Ukraine's about the size of
Texas. So imagine the if Texas was being
invaded from Oklahoma, from Arkansas,
and from Louisiana all at the same time.
That's the front line in in Ukraine
because Bellarus and Russia arc that
entire border of Ukraine. So Ukraine is
a very corrupt country. So we were
worried and and all the donors over here
from the United States government to
just mom and pop, you know, and and
people, you know, donating whatever they
they could to help the Ukrainian
civilians,
not necessarily doing anything to thwart
the Russians, but just to help the
because there's a huge
evacuation of women and children. The
men weren't allowed to leave, even
though a lot of them did. Some of them
did, but they weren't allowed to leave
because they're fighting a war and they
don't have a giant population. So, they
need all the help they can get. So, all
the men had to stay. But
I created a pipeline
um from Poland, which is on the western
border, all the way across Ukraine to
the eastern border of humanitarian
supplies. And I did that overtly. This
was not CIA stuff. This was not
Clanderstein stuff. This was for my
nonprofit. Um, when I first went over
there, I just kind of went went for my
went by myself and didn't make it a big
deal, but I started a fundraising
campaign. It's called Kids Helping
Ukraine. Uh, where we where we sold
friendship bracelets that Ukrainian kids
made. Still still going on. So, we had
these big groups of kids in Ukraine all
over the country making thousands of
friendship bracelets in the in the in
the uh colors of the Ukrainian flag, red
and gold. same colors of the Naval
Academy, same colors of my high school,
same colors of Emory actually. Um
but so it was very overt that I was
there
and but very quickly um
I got tapped in the intelligence world
for the not just the humanitarian
supplies that were going to the from the
west across the country to the front
lines but for the US donated supplies
and equipment um you know from from the
military from the bigger suppliers to
help the the Ukrainians actually defend
themselves against the Russians as well
as help, you know, protect the the
soldiers and the volunteers, the body
armors and things like that up to big
equipment to down to medicine and, you
know, defiills and and uh tourniquets
and and all the things you need in a war
that most people don't think you may
need in a war. But and that kind of
segueed into
how we ended up here. [laughter]
and I was happy to do it because to kind
of give you a a sense of where things
were then and still are to a degree.
Like the airspace was Russian
controlled, so you couldn't fly in
supplies.
So you had to park them in in one of the
neighboring countries and that was
generally Poland. So, I had kind of a
home base in Kkow,
um, which was about the closest bigger
town, bigger city, bigger town to the
Ukrainian border.
I would shepherd that equipment across
the country. You couldn't fly it in. You
didn't use rail that much because the
Russians were bombing the rails to an
extent. When the Russians first invaded,
they thought they were going to take it
in in a couple weeks. So, they didn't
really they didn't really target the
infrastructure. So, it was weird. You'd
be on the front lines and you had had a
cell phone signal. You're in a trench
getting artiller getting attacked by
artillery and you know you can watch Ian
big uh the podcast and you're like this
is so surreal but um because the
Russians didn't blow up the
infrastructure, they didn't blow up gas
stations and and there were nuclear
power plants there. Chernobyl's there
was there um is obviously not active
anymore, but there are other nuclear
plants that power not only Ukraine but
large parts of Europe.
they eventually started bombing
civilians and started bombing started
drone attacks and rockets and artillery
when they could. Um civilians and
they're doing that to this day. You'll
see a headline in the morning that'll
say, you know, thou 500 Russian drones
attack Kev and eight people dead. And
those are civilians. I mean, they're
just flying them into apartment
buildings. It's ridiculous. But there's
a there's a strategy behind that. Um,
you know, and it's
we we can get into, but not necessarily
need need to get into like this this war
is endable and I'd love to be a part of
it. And I was like I I didn't say this
earlier but in all this in all this
world and all this work I was doing and
all the education that I had I was so I
was told anyway I was kind of on on
short list to be a a diplomat.
So to be an ambassador not to Ukraine
necessarily but somewhere and then when
this whole thing went down like that and
everything else in my life like just
slid slid right off the the side of the
roof. Um,
but you know, again, chaos and extreme
uncertainty, but where are the
advantages in that situation? That's
what I'm, you know, that's from day one,
that's what I'm looking for. You've done
a great job of turning that adversity
into something and finding the
advantages of it. So, big big
congratulations on doing that. Um,
so I guess any any questions up to this
point or like segue
>> I guess I guess the million-dollar
question is how you end up in prison.
>> So that segus right into
what started
the down cycle, I guess if you want to
call it that. what started the beginning
of the the bad cycle that I'm hopefully
on an upcycle now, but where things turn
for the worse.
I need to say this
without saying anything that I shouldn't
be saying non-disclosure-wise, like
national security wise.
So, it's a well-known fact to the world
that I'm
donating. A lot of this a lot of these
donations came out of my own pocket
because I was making plenty of money
running my hedge fund. I'd run my hedge
fund at night because this is
six, seven hours depending on the time
changes and the time zones between
Poland's one and and Ukraine's one one
more distance. But like I would start
work at at like 3:00 or 4:00 in the
afternoon and work till like 10:00 or
11:00 and hedge fund and I didn't the
way I had the hedge fund structured I
didn't have to work it every day. So
just the whole strategy I would either
have it hedged to where there was no
chance of loss or we would be in cash. I
was in cash like 50% of the time which
is great. Again, going back to when I
started the whole thing, I was very
interested and passionate about trading
derivatives. And the strategy that I
ultimately developed, it was just you
you it's like a I called it kind of a
sniper strategy. If I saw an
opportunity, I would get in. It wasn't
high frequency trading, but it was kind
of one off of that. So, I would get in,
I would make a big trade. [snorts] I'd
put, you know, 10 or 20% of the fund at
risk, hold it for maybe a few minutes,
maybe maybe a few hours, maybe a few
days, no more than like maybe four days,
get out or it would expire. Options have
expiration dates. That's a big component
of them. So do futures. Um, but so we're
back to cash. No risk.
So, if I know we're back in cash now, I
can go
anywhere in the world for a day, a week,
a month, whatever, and not have to worry
at all about the hedge fund. And we've
already made 3% this month, so my
investors are going to be happy. Uh, so
everybody wins.
my job was to shepherd
humanitarian supplies and a lot of the
US donated supplies like covert and
overt, but doing it I was wearing two
hats. So I was a humanitarian volunteer
and had other humanitarian vol American
humanitarian and people from all over
the world really stood up and and came a
lot you know not not many people went to
the front lines. I've got stories about
um about the few who went with me.
Chapter one of my book is a story about
we actually almost got caught by
Russians um and I was with
just normal American volunteers who knew
nothing about my espionage life.
And they didn't realize until after the
fact that we almost got captured by
Russians and became kind of PS. We
wouldn't have been PS because we were
civilian, but they like they would have
detained us and maybe sent us back to
Russia and we could still be in prison.
A marine got out yesterday, yesterday or
today that had been held in Russia for
four years for espionage or something. I
nobody's even really sure. They just
sometimes they just snatch you and put
you in prison. That's what they do. Um,
but overtly I was running humanitarian
supplies covertly. I was making sure
this equipment got to the places that it
needed to be. Some of it was kind of
overt, but my role in it was not overt.
It was covert. So, and I was doing
things.
I was training soldiers. I was training
volunteers. I was That's not There are
pictures of me online doing that. So,
that's nothing secret anymore.
um even if it was then but I'm working
on the front lines and there weren't a
lot of Americans coming to the front
lines it covertly or overtly
but again I'm comfortable in those
situations so I was kind of tapped to do
both and again we can't fly anything in
so we're busing or like with cargo vans
and trucks on just roads that are like
the the surface of the moon um this they
call it the Ukrainian milkshake because
you're went the the potholes over there
are so deep that your your whatever
you're in your car whatever is just
doing this I mean not exaggerating you
feel like you're going to flip over any
minute just because the potholes are so
big and deep and they call it Ukrainian
milkshake because whatever you're
holding is going to get shaken up so um
in that role
I saw a lot of corruption
and I you see corruption all over the
world in the in what I was doing in in
the intelligence community.
Um but rarely is any of it affecting
people and harming people. And the
things that I was in charge of
shephering to the front lines were
things that people needed, people that
were saving people's lives, civilians
and military and volunteer uh groups.
when I saw that they were being
diverted,
I got upset and I was like, "Stop doing
this." Because none of these people that
these are other Americans that are
supposed to be there helping, but
they're there stealing. Not everything,
but you know, this warehouse full of
stuff disappears, but the other three
are still there. So you can take those,
but don't worry about this one. Well, I
am worried about this one because
they're waiting on me to show up with 10
trucks. And if I show up with six,
they're going to think like we can't
rely on you. And worse, they're going to
think I've done something with the other
four. And I don't want that any way you
look at it. So, um, I protested and it
was and I'm in an overt role. If I was
in a covert role and I protested, I
protested before and people are like, "F
off." And I'm like, "I won't." And and
I'm the one going to the front lines.
You're not going to the front lines. So,
I'm the one responsible for these
things. So, I'm taking this personally.
This isn't just we have 20 Ferraris on a
ship and and 18 of them make it to the
port kind of thing or get delivered to
the Sultan of whatever whatever. Uh,
and two go missing somehow. Um, it's
like people are going to die if this
stuff doesn't get there. And that
bothers me a hell of a lot. So I
protested
and that was not smart
because
to give you a little peak behind the
curtain
and it's things that I think are are out
there to to a large degree but it's a
lot of conspiracy theories and a lot of
inac very inaccurate information and
that's good because the more inaccurate
stupid conspiracy theories it makes the
real conspiracies
pliable and doable.
um that you don't have to worry so much
about being exposed.
If you know if I throw a thousand
white marbles on this table and I tell
you one white marble is a pearl, but
they all look exactly alike. Like good
luck finding the white marble, right?
That's the real thing that's going on is
the pearl. And the other 999
are are marbles. They're conspiracy
theories that don't amount to anything.
but a peak into the pearl from a
distance. So, let me give you that.
Again, all these other ones are similar
or not too far off. And I'm not going to
go too deep because again, I don't want
to get in trouble and I don't want to go
to jail. I don't want to expose anybody,
go back to jail. Um,
the world is controlled by very powerful
groups of people,
not by one group, but by different
groups.
And those groups, as you can imagine,
are very wealthy, mostly men,
um, a few women, a few,
I'll say fringe participants like
thought leaders, intellectuals,
upandcoming founders that are doing some
really cutting edge stuff that might
benefit the people in those groups.
these groups supersede
boundaries and borders and flags.
they are standing above it moving the
chess pieces around
and again there there aren't a lot of
these groups but there are a handful and
sometimes they work together.
Sometimes group A and group B will work
together and a few years later they may
I don't want to say hate each other
because it's above that. It's above
it's above war and hate and and revenge
a lot of times. You still got humans.
They're still emotion. They're still
people. But
it's on a higher plane
where
you stealing a billion dollars or
hundred billion dollars from me pisses
me off, but not enough to where I'm
going to screw all of this up because
all of this is much bigger than me. and
all of it that $und00 million I might
make back in the, you know, on the next
deal or I might might make three times
that. Um, so you have shifting
alliances. I I equated a lot for history
buffs out there to like the citystates
in ancient Greece and then even into
Italy before they unified of of you know
the Venetians against the the against
Florence against Milan against Rome and
you know going back to the Spartans
against Greece and and
the barbarian horde attacks they band
together and they were fighting a year
ago, but now they're in it together
because they have a bigger enemy that
they have to worry about. So these these
groups have shifting alliances
to whichever ones benefit them the most.
So all that to say is uh and you know
that changes periodically. So, I guess
just the point just to to make is
they're not set in stone. Like Russia
doesn't always and it's not like one
Russian group and not to dive too deep
into any of this, but there is there is
not a Russian group and then there is
not an American group. It's bigger than
that. It's it's borders and and and and
states and countries don't matter.
if Russia and America hate each other,
Yeah. and I want to go, you know, if
we're we're in war with Iran and my job
is to go kill Iranians, there's a whole
another game being played above that.
That
I'll leave it at that.
So the war is are just chess pieces and
people are dying and suffering and it's
horrible and terrible and the people
running these groups aren't aren't
necessarily always in it for themselves
because if they're just in it for
themselves, societyy's going to fall.
Societyy's going to crumble. So it's not
like these rich fat cats just trying to
make a buck and trying to make another
billion dollars here and hundred billion
dollars there. It's not that at all.
That's an element of it. Money controls
the world. Um, for better or worse.
You have the money, you have the power.
You have the power, you have everything.
You have the power, you get more money,
right? That you have a hand over those
chess pieces.
that's a peak behind the curtain.
When you piss one of those groups off,
there are consequences.
I did not realize that I pissed one of
those groups off. And I should have, I
guess, in hindsight. I should have just
kept I shouldn't I wouldn't have kept my
mouth shut because [ __ ] that, people are
dying, right? And I don't give a [ __ ]
who's in power and what's going to
happen to me. But when I'm in charge of
saving people's lives,
I'm going to do everything I can to save
those people's lives. and evac you like
another big thing we did we would take
supplies in and we would evacuate women
and children out of the out of the front
because people still live on the front
lines call them crazy and stupid but
people don't want to leave their homes
well you know when the bomb falls across
the street now suddenly you want to
leave your homes so from day one there
we would bring supplies in and evacuate
women and children out to Lviv and the
safer parts of Ukraine and then over in
Poland they would end up in Germany some
ended up in the United States so we
evacuated
hundreds of women and children and I'm
very proud of that. Um,
and I'm there, you know, to help and to
help end the conflict and to to help
protect people and only realized after I
had protested multiple times,
like I've been told, you know, keep your
mouth shut or really join join us. No,
like one, I was always I'm I'm in a
really great world and I'm in in a
really shadow world where where bad
things are done, but I was successful
and I had a great reputation. I think I
had a great I'm pretty sure I had a
great reputation because I was kind of a
boy scout. Like I still come from that
honor and duty and country from
Annapolis and the way I grew up and God
bless America and apple pie and baseball
and we're all doing we're all in it to
help each other and go and there's no
other no better country than than
America.
And I didn't believe that for a while
and I've I've kind of kind of believe it
again. I do believe it again. America's
is kind of like the most beautiful girl
you've ever seen that has her faults,
but she also has a really great heart
and and does more good things in the
world than bad things in the world. And
people will argue against that maybe,
but you know, every now and then she
sets your car on fire [laughter] and or
throws all your clothes out the window
um and goes a little crazy and does some
really stupid crazy [ __ ]
and we have been on the other end of
that um individually,
she's still the most beautiful woman
compared to compared to all the other
women in the world and you still love
her and she's you still see all the good
things of her. And you here's the here's
the the blessing and the curse is that
every four years
she's going to get shock treatment. And
when you get shock treatment um like
psychiatrists, you know, in like insane
asylums and people do it now just in the
strip mall down the street, um it change
it can change your personality. So every
four years, whether you want her to or
not, she's going to get shock treatment.
And sometimes you don't want her
personality to change at all and you
hope it stays the same after the shock
treatment, and it does sometimes. And
other times it's completely different.
And so that's our election system,
right? So sometimes it's changed and it
goes a completely other direction. Maybe
for the better, maybe for the worse, and
then four years later we do the whole
thing over again. And really it's every
two years with the midterms and all
that. But um
back on back on what landed me as a
target is I learned that a lot of that
corruption was tied to some very
powerful people in the United States.
And I kind of learned it after the fact,
but I was still thinking like I don't
care. I don't care if, you know, if if
Santa Claus is behind this. Um,
these people are still suffering and
they need this stuff. So, we need to you
need to stop this corruption and we need
to do what's right here. You know, do
what you signed up for.
Do your job. Be honorable.
So, I didn't. So, they back to the like
I was kind of a boy scout. They were
like, "You need to do this with us or
shut the [ __ ] up." And I was like, I'm
not going to do it with you and I'm not
going to shut the f up because again all
the stuff I've already said. And then it
was you need to shut up or kind of, you
know, you're going to you need to shut
up or you're going to be sorry. And I
was like, f you, man. Like who are you?
Like you're we're we're the same. Like
you're not a general or you're not a
you're I'm I'm a freaking GS-15 level uh
operator here. You're not telling me
what I can and can't do. There's no
rank. you can't pull rank on me.
Um, coming from a guy who's actively
stealing donations from the United
States of America, he's not stealing,
he's not Omar stealing from drug
dealers, uh, and and, you know, selling
it back to drug dealers. He's stealing
from the United States Treasury and from
United States citizens and other people
in the Western world who had donated
their hard-earned money to help people.
And that's what I'm there to do. Well,
the fact that I was overt, it scared the
powers that be. It's like this guy knows
a lot and people know he's there and
he's not uh
he's not bound by any sort of
non-disclosure agreement.
So, he could blow this whole thing up.
We need to do something about it. And I
learned all this from some my
intelligence colle from two two separate
very dialed in uh colleagues very high
up intelligence colleagues uh obviously
you know can't can't name them but
they're the kind of guys individ not at
the same same time individually they
came to me and they're like what's this
I'm hearing about this and that and the
other and I'm like [ __ ] what you heard
about that and they're like yeah you
need to shut up and I was like one I
appreciate you coming to me but also
know. And like and I've already the
cat's out of the bag. Like the dice
cast. I've already they know I'm I'm
pissed off about this. Not to the point
where I would whistle blow because I'm
not a rat. Even when you're doing things
like that,
I certainly wouldn't divulge anything
that would be uh even come close to
being any sort of like traitor type
thing or divulging any kind of national
secrets. But even guys who are being
dirt bags, pieces of crap, who were
stealing,
I really want them to stop and I'm
really pressing hard for them to stop so
we can help the people that need to be
helped. But at the same time, like I'm
not going to rat them out. I'm not going
to do that. Um,
so these the guys that told me are guys
that like if they called right now and
said, "Mike, you need to get out of
Connecticut."
I would say, "This is done and you're
you're coming with me. Grab everybody
you love and your dogs and your kids and
a a go bag if you've got one because
we're going wherever they tell tell us
to go." And like now that's the kind of
guys that's the kind of access these
these guys have. So when they tell me
like this is serious I listen. So as it
went prison was probably the better
version of what could have happened
because the option number one was should
we just kill this guy? He's on the front
lines. like he's he's
doing things with the Ukrainians that
could very easily result in his death.
No, let's not do that. We don't kill
Americans. And that's true. Unless they
like, you know, convert to al Taliban
and al-Qaeda like you've heard over the
years some of some of that stuff. If you
actively sw become a US citizen who
becomes a sworn enemy of the United
States, you're going down. So, but if
you're still on the on the on the side
of good, um, we're not going to kill you
as an intelligence community. And if
that's ever happened, I haven't known
about it. So, two things we don't do.
Kill our own and and spy on Americans in
the way that we do to people in other
countries. Is there metadata? Is there
things? Is there ways to do it? Yes. We
won't go into that, but you can feel
relatively safe that if you're getting
spied on in the United States as an
American, it's not the CIA, it's another
agency. There are 18 of them.
>> It's Apple. [laughter]
>> They're not uninvolved.
Um maybe, maybe not. Um you know, our
our good friends at the FBI are
certainly no stranger to some of that
stuff, but the problem with the FBI is
they're not looking to prevent anything.
They're looking to capture bad guys and
put them in prison. So,
they're good good FBI agents and they're
bad FBI agents and
but they kind of
want I don't want to say they want bad
things to happen, but their job is to
get the people after the bad things are
happen. So they may know this isn't part
for the course and this isn't every
agent or every division or whatever
every group but if they know something's
going to happen they need it to happen
and they kind of maybe want it to happen
so then they can go in and and get the
bad guys. We do the exact opposite in
the intelligence community. We prevent
it from happening. You're building a
bomb in your basement. We're taking you
out or we're coming in. Not in America.
We would send in SWAT or we would send
in like the local police. Um, maybe the
FBI,
but also you're building a bomb in your
basement. We got enough to charge you
and put you in prison. So now the FBI is
involved. Um, before it gets to that
point, they're like, "No, no, no. Maybe
maybe let him build the bomb. We'll get
him before he blows anybody up with it.
Maybe. Hopefully." Anyway, that's not to
go back off on a tangent, but um, so
option one, let's kill him. No, we don't
do that. So that was good to hear. This
is all after the fact, right? [snorts]
This is after I'm being targeted. And
this kind of led to why why I I pled and
kind of one of the one of the reasons I
pled. Um when I figured out who was
behind when I heard who was behind it, I
was like, "Fuck."
So, um
option two, let's let's make him look
like a traitor, not that he that he's
working with the Russians,
and let the Ukrainians deal with him.
Well, I that didn't work. That was a
quick no because I'd done too much with
the Ukrainians to against the Russians
that no, there was no way they could say
that I was working with the Russians.
So, option three is like, all right,
what's this dude? What's this guy do
when he's not in Ukraine? Oh, he runs a
hedge fund. Oh, well, [ __ ] That's a
no-brainer. Go get it. He works in
finance.
Like, he's probably committed seven
felonies while we've been having this
conversation. Um, not because I've
committed any felonies, just because the
the way the law is structured, it's uh
like I can't remember the author's name,
but the the Harvard lawyer um who wrote
the book Three Felonies a Day, like
you've probably had other you've
probably talked about
>> when they want something, they'll find
something.
>> Yeah. The the average American on on an
average day commits three felonies just
because it's not because they're
actively doing anything wrong. It's
because the law laws are so vague and a
lot of laws and this goes for finance.
Um certainly and it certainly goes for
freaking medicine. I feel so bad for
anybody in the medical industry um
because the laws are so vague and even
contradictory that if you obey this law
you're breaking that law and it's in the
financial world that's certainly true.
If you strictly obey this regulation you
are by default breaking this regulation
and vice versa. So they can get you one
way or the other. And it's not designed
to be that way. I don't think. I hope
not. But it's just through all the
layers of new regulations and new
regulations and red tape and years of
politicians coming through the
committees and oh well and they're
they're handling the fire. They're
putting out the fires and they're
creating uh you know putting a new fire
escape on a building that already has 37
fire escapes.
And that's their financial regulation
that the the fire escape that new fire
escape makes the fire escape that they
built 17 years ago now a a fire trap.
So, um anyway, they were like, "All
right, this guy runs a hedge fund. Go
find something."
So, they investigated
my hedge fund.
Let me back up a little bit
because this goes into like, well, how
do you know this was a conspiracy there?
I won't go through all of them, but I'll
just give you some of the highlights of
like this is pretty obviously I was
pretty obviously targeted. I did nothing
wrong. This is what they do to people
that that that
kind of fight the power, if you will.
the SEC regulates the financial markets.
The SEC is not a criminal. SEC can't put
criminals put people in jail in prison.
They can just go after money and take
away your licenses and things like that.
I had a series 3 series 65 federal
licenses
um was a registered investment advisor.
all this stuff you just take tests and
study and you're get your licenses makes
you more educated but more certified you
know investors feel better when you have
those licenses behind you like they feel
better when you have master's degrees
from emer Cambridge and Oxford and
Harvard and wherever
so I started my first fund in 2009
for up until from 2009 to 2020
the SEC had examined my fund three
times, which is par for the course. And
that it was very successful. Like the
performance was very good. So, it made
sense that they would come in and be
like, "Make sure you're not burning maid
off. Make sure you're not just making up
returns and pocketing all this money."
And I spent a ton of money for to do all
the things that giant funds have done.
the the third party administrators, the
the big four accounting firms to do the
audits, the top tier brokers, all of the
things that billion-dollar funds did, I
did even when I was running, you know,
$20 million when I was a very, that's a
lot of money, but in the hedge fund
world, that's pennies, that's a lemonade
stand.
So, but I had all that infrastructure in
place. So when they came in and did the
examination, it sucked because it was
expensive because you got to hire a
lawyer. That's 50 grand at the drop of a
hat. It takes the SEC the amount of time
to fill out one of those forms. It's a
subpoena, which sounds, you know, very
threatening and it's very scary because
it's an official subpoena from the
United States government. It's got the
seal at the top and everything. And it's
really just a request for information,
but you have to hire a lawyer. And now
you've got to get all of your records,
all of your emails, all of your
statements, brokerage statements, all of
your trades, everything. It's called
open kimono. You've opened your kimono,
your your let them see inside and
underneath the covers and under the hood
and everything. It's it's fine. I it
sucked because it's a hell of a lot of
work that you don't want to do because
you've got other stuff you got to be
work need to be working on. Especially
me having kind of two professions
running parallel to each other working
as you know as a knock and working as a
as a hedge fund manager. Now, I've got
this other basically full-time job of
compiling all this other information.
And then you got to pay a lawyer to put
it all together, get it bait stamped,
submit it to the SEC, make sure you're
doing everything right. Because if you
try to do it yourself, you're going to
screw up and they're going to use that
to get you. U because that's what they
do. That's their job. It's not to help
people prove they're innocent. It's to
find guilty people. And if they're on
the fringe and they need a few more
scalps on the wall that month to hit
their quota, this guy's probably guilty.
Let's go ahead and find him. $10
million, take away his license. Um, but
they never found anything. Three
investig not investigations. That's a
whole another story. That's
[clears throat] a whole another level of
coming after you. Inquiry. So, I had
three inquiries over what, 10 years? Um,
longer than that, 12 years.
And then in 2020 and and
made it through all of them with flying
colors. It sucked because you know like
I've already explained it's expensive
for the lawyers
uh and it's time consuming
and a lot of times the SEC doesn't even
have the courtesy to to say okay we're
done you're good to go. Sometimes they
do sometimes they don't. It's called a
no action letter. They'll send you a
letter. It never says like
congratulations you're off the hook. It
just says, "We didn't find anything this
time, but we we aren't going to pro
prosecute you, but um you know, kind of
keep your nose clean. Um because we're
always watching, and that's their job.
They're a regulator."
So, you know, no harm, no foul on that.
If you if you aren't speeding, you don't
mind if a cop's on your ass. But like
Warren Buffett says, if you if a cop
follows you for 200 miles, you're going
to get a ticket because you're
eventually going to, you know, go one
mile over to the speed limit or cross
the line a little bit or something. Um,
his quote, not mine. I say, you know, if
you never do anything, you're never you
should never get a ticket unless you got
a dirty cop. But
so that was that's the backstory.
In 2020, in December of 2020, and this
is kind of this is COVID had started in
China, but had not really it hadn't
become a thing in the United States yet.
I got another inquiry started. Got a new
subpoena. They wanted all the
information. So, I, you know, here we go
again. There's like now it's not 50
grand because we're in 2020. We're in
2020. It's like 70 grand because that's
what lawyers do. They don't get any less
expensive over the years.
um if inflation goes up 3%, lawyers go
up 13%, you know, or 30%. So I'm like,
man, like that's an analyst. Like I
could hire an analyst for that money,
but now I've got to pay it to a
compliance lawyer to get make sure we
give all this stuff to the SEC
correctly. So we do. Had a great lawyer.
that was 2020, 2021,
2022.
the war starts. I'm running the fund the
whole time. I'm still working as a knock
uh the whole thing, you know, pre-COVID.
Get the inquiry. Don't think anything of
it other than this is going to be a pain
in the ass and I'm going to have to pay
this lawyer to make sure I do everything
correctly.
Oh, so sorry. Jumping 2021, 2022, the
war starts in February. I go over in
March, like a couple weeks after the war
started, after Russia invaded, right
after the Winter Olympics actually. So,
they waited. Um,
still nothing.
this is when I'm over there and I'm
seeing the corruption. I'm speaking. I'm
I'm protesting. I'm I'm, you know, not
with a not with a sign and a and a
stick, but like, you guys need to stop
doing this.
spring I get a target letter out of the
blue had haven't heard from the SEC in
two year over two years the times we had
reached the times my I would call my
lawyer every six months or so and be
like have you heard anything from the
SEC he's like no I'm like call them
because he went to law school with one
of the one of the people who were in in
my case you know there's in the in the
in the this is out of the Atlanta office
which is where I lived for many years at
this point I was living in Miami Beach
had an office and was living part-time
in in New York City. Again, major
airports, all that good stuff. Um,
but the SEC where I started, the SEC
group was out of Atlanta, which is where
I started my first fund. So, for
whatever reason, they were the ones who
kind of still
regulated me, I guess.
So over two years go by. Every six
months or so for like the first year my
lawyer I would ask my lawyer to reach
out to his col his uh law school friend
um or law school or they worked at the
same firm. They knew each other. They
were friendly um as they all are. You
know, everybody in that industry and
like every criminal defense lawyer is
friendly in one way or another with the
assistant US attorneys and they all golf
together and then come in and argue in
the courtroom. And so it's really a
incestuous mix that we're we're exposed
to. But um so
when he would ask the first time it was
after, you know, after a every couple
months, then it was like every six
months. But every time he would ask,
they would say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just
send us updated information." So that's
more money. Now I've got to go back, you
know, for the past four weeks and get
all my emails, all my statements, all my
trades, package those, send my send
those to my lawyer. She's got to bait
stamp them and all that. Uh send those
to the SEC. Nothing would happen. So
after a year, just stopped. And this had
happened before, like they had wrapped
up their inquiries and just not letting
me know, not not let my lawyer know. My
lawyer's like, "Hey, where do we stand
on this?" They just stop responding. So
[snorts] after a year, we just think
it's over and done with. Another year
goes by.
All right. Yeah. Nothing dead in the
water. If anything, maybe a new inquiry
because it's been two years and they're
regulators. And I was doing well. I was
coming through. Well, this is before CO,
but we did well during CO when the COVID
crashed. We actually made money. Um,
in 20 in the spring of 2023, I get a
target letter from the SEC, not from the
DOJ at this point, from the SEC saying,
you're a target. We're So they escalated
it to an investigation. And I was like,
these guys haven't been around for over
two years,
and suddenly they're saying, I'm
breaking the law. Like, what have they
been doing for two years? if I'm so if
I'm breaking the law, why have they not
kicked in the door and shut me down? Um
and I'm, you know, I'm still running
full speed.
So, but turns out, I guess,
unless they think you're actively
stealing money and, you know, for a true
Ponzi scheme or something like you're
going to run off to Russia or North
Korea or somewhere uh with that money,
you know, they're not they're not
necessarily going to shut you down until
they're ready to like truly prosecute
you. Um, so they may let you go. I I I
don't know what the percentage is, but
they don't always shut you down. So they
started an investigation on me and right
on the heels of that was the DOJ.
And this is, you know, now now we're
talking criminal.
And supposedly
their
investigations, the SEC is separate from
the DOJ,
but their their investigations were
running in parallel. They weren't
running in parallel. None of this came
out of that. All of this came straight
from my Ukraine work. Some very powerful
people called some very very powerful
people. Some very very powerful people
called some very powerful people in the
US government and said we need you to
find something on this guy. We and it's
called defanging. We need you to defang
this guy. It's like the fangs of a
snake. Take the fangs out of a snake.
The snake's harmless. um poisonous
snakes anyway. You know, you got your
constrictors and your anacondas and all
that, but the term serves of we need you
to run this guy's reputation so if he
blows the whistle, nobody's going to
believe him. So, brand him a liar, find
something on him, convict him, get him
to plead, whatever you need to do, do
it. Um before this guy blows the
whistle. I had no intentions of blowing
the whistle. They didn't know that. They
just know I was overtly in Ukraine.
not overtly saying it on social media or
to to the common man of like these guys
are stealing, but saying it kind of out
loud of like, you guys are stealing and
if the guy walking down the street wants
to hear me say that, okay. Um, but so
that started the targeting and so the
SEC kicked it off first and then the DOJ
was right on their heels and then it's
just a a [ __ ] show of like
what you know we we think that you're
doing all this all this crazy stuff with
money. They never mentioned Ponzi
scheme. They actually said in every
conversation we ever had and every
correspondence we ever had, they
actually said, "We know you're not
stealing any money." Like, so and we
didn't know what they were doing, what
they were coming with. Now I'm hiring
more lawyers. I'm hiring former
prosecutors. Ended up with six lawyers
total,
different ones on the case at different
times, but you know, at any given time
it'd be four or five working in some
form or facet. And
so pretty, this all goes down pretty
quickly. This all I got that target
letter from the SEC in the spring of
2023,
about a year after I went to Ukraine and
about a only a few months after I'd
really been protesting because winter
had come and like people are freezing to
death and like that's a whole another
situation.
they we don't know what's going to
happen. And my lawyers are like, "I
can't get an answer from anybody." And
then at some point they they uh suggest
a reverse profer. And people probably
know this, and I'll I'll try not to kind
of regurgitate everything that all your
other guests say, but to educate people
who are hearing this story that know
nothing about the the DOJ, Department of
Justice, Department of Justice is DOJ,
Bureau of Prisons, which is a whole
another [ __ ] show, is uh full of
terrible people, is the BOP. So, for
those who don't know, I know 99% of the
people that watch this, of course, they
know that, but um
so the DOJ offered us a reverse profer.
Let me let me say
my case and oh, it wasn't for my hedge
fund. We did find out
they weren't targeting my hedge fund,
which had hundreds of million over a
hundred million dollars in assets under
management. They looked at it, they
wanted to target it, but they couldn't
because I there were too many checks and
balances in place of all the things that
these multi-billion dollar funds do. I
had all that infrastructure in place.
So, I've got I'm outsourcing the
accounting. I'm outsourcing the
brokerage. I'm outsourcing the audits.
So, I'm not touching anybody's money
ever. Like if you are an investor of
mine and you want money,
you send a request directly to the
accountant or to the administrator,
which is an accountant, and they wire
you your money. Like I'm all I do is
make the trades. So there's no way for
me to steal money. You can thank Bernie
Maid off for that. Before Bernie Maid
off, it was a whole different story. But
after Bernie Maidoff, the new
regulations came in.
So they offer a reverse profer and they
but they had come after my management
company the company that ran and managed
the hedge fund. So when I started that
company in 2016,
I thought, all right, I want a runway
like any startup. You go to investors
and you say, I'm going to build this
business and this business could fill in
the blank. Nightclubs, it could be
restaurants, it could be a lemonade
stand, it could be a tech company, um it
could be a podcast company, you name it.
but I want to raise X amount of money
and that'll give us two years if if my
math is correct on my spreadsheets and
and burn rates and all this and
projections. That's going to give us two
or three years to where we can lose
money to give us time to get in the
market and start our business and and
like most startups do in any industry,
you lose money for the first really I
think on average is three years before
you even break even and [snorts] then
you don't really turn a profit until
like year five. That's on average for
most startups.
>> Um, I think that's a little tech
focused, but on general, you can kind
of, if you start a new business, unless
you've got a magic wand, you can kind of
uh count on losing money for the first
year or two or three on average. Again,
some people go out of business in two
years. Some people turn into uh unicorns
and, you know, go from zero to a billion
dollar valuation in six months. So, you
just never know. But those are outliers.
Well, the unicorn's an outlier. bankrupt
more common than anything. Uh most
companies just go out of business no
matter what the company. But
so I had raised a I had targeted like $3
million for that raise for the
management company. So when I to kind of
give you an idea of what that is, if you
think of like a mutual fund company like
Vanguard or Fidelity or even Goldman
Sachs or JP Morgan, those are the those
are the management companies. Underneath
those companies, you have mutual funds
and bond funds and treasuries and all
these different instruments that they
that they create and the funds that they
manage. But the on the higher level,
it's the Vanguards and the Fidelities.
That's what my company was. It's called
High Guard Capital, and that's what they
invested in. Um,
and that controlled the hedge fund. And
my my goal was to have multiple hedge
funds and become, you know, the next
Goldman Sachs, the next Fidelity. But,
you know, you start with one thing and
then you as you make money on that, you
get bigger and bigger. We ventured in
venture capital a little bit. Um,
[snorts] but the the main hedge fund was
the big thing. So, they couldn't find
anything on the hedge fund, so they they
targeted the management company. So,
we're talking I didn't I ultimately the
number that they finally came up with
ended up being like $2.8 million.
And as you probably know, like the
numbers these guys come up with are
almost like I don't know, think of a
number between one and a zillion and
somebody goes 30,250,
743 and they go done. Let's go after him
for that. And I'm not joking. Like that
is not an exaggeration. Like especially
when you talk to some of these Medicare
fraud guys who went in for Medicare
fraud who are like who will admit guilt
and they're like yeah like this pharma
rep paid me $102,000
but like my restitution is se,456,000
because every script turned into some
other amount and that's the total that
the government went after just because
they could. So, they did cuz screw you,
you're a bad guy and we're going to take
you down. Um, and and you know, we know
that story and and most of your
listeners know that story,
they prosecuted me out of the main. So,
this is like $2.8 million total. It's
not 28 million. It's not 280 million.
It's not 2.8 billion. It's 2.8 8
million, which is no small amount of
money, but in the grand scheme of
finance, again, we're talking pennies
here. That's a that's a good week of
dinners at Goldman Sachs, like in the
city. Um, and maybe a few pl private jet
rides, you know, to Amsterdam or
somewhere. But the the groups that
prosecuted me were out of Washington DC.
This is the A team. This is the dream
team from the DOJ. They didn't come out
of Atlanta. They didn't come out of
Miami.
Uh they didn't come out of New York.
They came out of Washington DC where
I've never worked, never lived. Uh never
had any business whatsoever. But they've
got the heavy hitters. These are this is
the group that took down like WorldCom
and Enron and the and the major players.
Same with the FBI. The FBI field office
out of Washington DC where their most
elite agents work were the ones that
came after me. $2.8 $.8 million
fraud, alleged fraud scheme where they
admitted on day one no money was
missing.
So if no money's missing, what's the
crime? So we're all ears. They're like,
"Come up for the reverse profer and
we'll tell you."
So, we flew up to Washington and that
was I said earlier like Washington's
always been a great place when I'm
riding I'm riding in I think I did I did
I drove just because I like road trips.
and you know passing all the monuments
and stuff and I'm thinking I love seeing
all this history and again a very
patriotic guy
who's less patriotic at this point
because I'm thinking what kind of
country do I live in where they're
coming after me? what is it? Like what
kind of mistake are they making here?
This is stupid. We're going to clear all
this up like today um in in this reverse
profer. But the reverse profer is you
know I think you don't it's a listening
exercise. It's not an argument exercise.
It's not a negotiation.
You're just there to listen to their
case. And what a reverse profer is again
to tell any any of your audience that
doesn't know
you go in with the DOJ with with
Department of Justice attorneys and they
tell you all the bad things that they're
going to char all the crimes that
they're going to charge you with all the
ways that they're going to put you
behind bars for the maximum amount of
time which in my case was 20 years.
So there we go in and and
it it wasn't like any cool building at
the FBI. It was some nondescript
building in the middle of Washington,
you know, a few blocks from everything
from the White House and everything. But
um it was just a rundown office with
cubicles and worn out carpet and and
upholstery coming off the chairs in the
boardroom like this tired boardroom. And
I'm just like, man, I can understand why
these people are miserable. Like they
like if I had to come to work here every
day, you know, I would be miserable,
too. But we go in and there are four or
five attorneys there, Department of
Justice attorneys. I think the FBI agent
was there who turned out to be a total
piece of [ __ ] Um,
and one of the attorneys, one of this is
one of their prompts, I guess. And I'm
just I'm just a bit I'm biting my tongue
as I go in and as they start their
thing. I'm just I've got to bite my
tongue to keep from laughing, but one of
the things I don't know if they did this
with you, but they had a giant stack of
like legal books. Like when you see when
you go to like a lawyer's office and
they have the whole just bookcase after
bookcase of of books that are like this
thick. They're like twice the thickness
of a phone book. Mhm.
>> They're stacked up like two or three
feet. They're like this high. And then
like one point the one of the guys like
pats it like this is what we're, you
know, this is what we're going to throw
at you kind of thing. And I'm just like
I'm rolling my eyes. And again I'm get
like they don't know anything about my
intelligence life. My lawyers don't know
anything about my intelligence life. um
because I I knew that would complicate
things and I also I knew my lawyers
would probably double my rate and I've
already paid them many hundreds of
thousands of dollars at this point.
Um because I think we're going to trial.
I'm like whatever they say, we're
fighting this. Like I can't believe I
live in a country that's even going to
think about prosecuting me. Not because
I'm super some super uh government
employee or agent or any or or officer
or anything, but just because I'm an
American citizen who's running a
legitimate company and making money for,
you know, teachers, retirement funds,
and helping little old ladies and things
like this. And oh, by the way, I just
evacuated, you know, 300 women and
children from getting their uh brains
blown out in Ukraine. And now they all
have happy lives and are wellfed and
sleep in warm beds every night in Europe
and the United States. So anyway, not to
not trying to pat myself on the back,
but like I'm thinking like I'm I'm a
good guy here. Like what's going on? Why
is this happening? And and whatever the
reason is, like let's fix it. So we go
in and I know at this point they're
coming after me. I don't know who's
behind it yet, but like they're coming.
like they don't offer they don't they
don't offer you a reverse proper unless
they really want to put pressure on you
and scare the hell out of you.
So we go in and they try their best to
scare me and they rattled off like 30
different things of all the things I've
done and and
all of it was a complete and total joke.
It was like you switched banks and you
had multiple brokerage accounts and you
had this and you had that and you did
this and and [clears throat] I was and I
didn't say a word, but I'm just
thinking, well, of course I did. Like
that's a good fiduciary. Like you have
multiple brokerage accounts because
guess what? Uh what was it 10 10 12
years ago? Brokerages went out of
business and overnight and people's
money disappeared and got frozen. So,
like you need a backup plan. Like all
these things I'm just thinking you've
got nothing, man. This is a joke. This
is like beyond laughable.
So, and turns out like one of the one of
the lawyer, one of the uh prosecutors
apparently hated me because I would
pause
like it this doesn't disclose anything.
It was a woman, but I didn't really tell
you who she is or anything, but she's
the one kind of rattling off everything.
and they've got a PowerPoint and all
this stuff. [snorts] Um, and again, I'm
just like, well, that's not right and
that's wrong and I don't know where
you're getting that from. And those
three things you just said aren't even a
crime. So, like, switching banks is not
a crime. Uh, but
I would stop her every now and because
she's just rattling it off and I'm like,
"Hold on a second. What did you say? I'm
trying to take notes in this. My lawyers
are taking notes because they're not
giving us anything. We can't leave with
any of this. They're not giving us a
copy of the PowerPoint presentation.
They're they just expect us to absorb
all these things. And they tell you, I
guess, about like 80% 90% of what
they're going to hit you with. And they
hold back like maybe my lawyer said they
just hold back some. They they they're
going to scare you with the biggest
guns. They're going to show you their
biggest guns. I don't know if they did
or not, but their biggest guns were were
slingshots you make out of a, you know,
in in study hall with paper clips and a
rubber band. They had nothing. And I
walked out of there smiling. And I mean,
I literally did this when I walked out.
We walked out and I've never done this
my in before in my life, but I was like,
"Guys,
we got nothing to worry about." I was
like, "This is going to be fun. We're
gonna I know these guys are coming at
this point, but I So, I'm thinking, man,
we're going to embarrass these guys.
Like, I'm gonna I'm going to make them
lose their job. Uh, if they're going to
target me like this, and I still don't
know why at this point, if they're going
to target me, like, who the hell they
think they are? Like, I'm a good guy. I
haven't done anything wrong. And they
kind of just proved my case for me in
the reverse profer. like of all the
things that I've done right. Everything
99% of what they said up there, we're
going to use their words to show that
that was actually what you're supposed
to do when you run a hedge fund. These
people don't know jack [ __ ] about a
hedge fund. They just know how to put
scalps on the wall and go after uh
target whoever they target. It's not
just they're going after fraud. They're
not necessarily going after hedge fund
fraud, especially derivatives trading,
which again is a small little niche of
the industry.
I'm like, "We we have nothing to worry
about here." And both of my lawyers,
both former prosecutors were like, "Not
so fast."
And I was like, "What do you mean?" He's
like, "Well, they said this and they
said that and they said this." And I was
like, "No, that's all that's fine. Like,
I have solid answers for all that
stuff." and my lawyers knew most of
everything, but they didn't know
everything about everything just because
I didn't, you know, we there just so
many moving parts in running a hedge
fund. Um, but you know, I'm happy to
clue them in on everything, whatever
whatever they felt like they were
missing because again, nothing to hide.
we went and had a drink like at a hotel,
you know, down the street or maybe back
at their hotel. Um,
and by the time we were done with that
drink, they were like, "We need to
settle this." And I was like, "You're
out of your mind. No way." And they were
like, "Well, here's what they're going
to do." And then they gave me the game
plan, you know, because they're both
former prosecutors. They know the game
plan. They've run the game plan. They
help write the game plan. Um, and
they're going to spin it this way and
they're going to make you look bad. And
another thing the DOJ did, they they
it's called um not jurisdiction shopped,
but that may be a district shopped,
something like that.
My they prosecuted me out of so the
world, the country is divided into into
federal districts, as obviously you
know, but for the people listening that
don't,
they didn't prosecute me out of New
York. They didn't prosecute me out of
Miami or Atlanta or even Mississippi,
where I was born and raised.
They prosecuted me out of the southern
district of Ohio. Again, like
Washington, where I've never lived,
never worked, never I've been to Ohio
State just to see the campus. That was
kind of it's Columbus, Ohio. Um that was
my extent of experience in Ohio
basically. But yet my case came out of
Ohio. And the reason they did it was
because the Southern District was
notorious for punishing and prosecuting
white collar defendants.
that was my jurisdiction. And as it
turns out, City Bank, where I banked and
all my funds banked, who cut me off
immediately um after I pled or or very
soon after I pled, as did my black card,
my credit cards, all my other banks, my
brokerage accounts, um
as they do, you know, maybe with
everybody, but they certainly did with
me. Um
City Bank had servers, computer servers
in that district. So because money had
moved through those servers that allowed
the that to be the district. So go
figure. Turned out to be sort of a
blessing. I got a little lucky. Um my
judge would turned out to be great.
by the time that drink was over, they
were like, "You need to plead and here's
how they're going to spin it." And I was
I still didn't believe it. I was like,
"I live in a country where justice
prevails and the innocent don't go to
jail and blah blah blah blah blah blah.
we're gonna fight this and I've got
great lawyers and you guys are great
lawyers and don't sell yourself short.
we go back like and I left Washington
the next day thinking like we're going
to fight this but still thinking like
these guys really want to settle and
like if they really want to settle
that's not a good thing. Like I figured
they would come out of there be being
gung-ho to fight. And I think part of it
too, I learned this kind of in camp of
like just the whole machine of
especially coming, no disrespect to
these lawyers, but coming from being
former prosecutors,
they're pre-wired to settle. So in most
lawyers in cases in financial cases and
in wire fraud cases,
I think everybody just kind of wants to
settle because that's the easy thing to
do. The government absolutely wants to
settle. There's data out the ass of if
like 90 this number is not right but
it's close like 97% of all cases settle
and if like 2% changed their mind if
that if that number dropped to only like
95% the whole system would would grind
to a halt because they can't hold it.
the system, the number of judges, the
number of prosecutors, uh they can't
absorb that just a few more people that
say, "No, I want to go to court." As
long as it takes to go to court already,
you know, it would just grind to a halt
and they'd be like, "Your court date
seven years from now." U so they want
settles, you know, and that keeps the
machine running.
we go back. I go back to I guess I was
in Florida at that time. Um, they go
back to Atlanta.
And at some point in this, this is in
the summer of 2023.
At some point in this, I learn who's
behind it,
and I'm like, "Oh [ __ ]
I'm [ __ ]
I'm a fighter, so let's fight it.
Then my lawyers are like, "Look, we'll
fight it. We'll take your money. you
know, we'll and we'll do the best job we
can, but here's what they're going to
do. And you're gonna, and this is why I
mentioned Columbus or Ohio earlier, like
they're gonna see it was this rich,
white, straight, fat cat, Wall Street
[ __ ]
hedge fund manager
who's hurting everybody in the world
because you're a rich, white, fat cat
hedge fund manager. because Wall Street
guys are all villains. That's what
that's the picture they're going to
paint. And they're going to be talking
to a jury in Columbus, Ohio.
And you're not going to get many hedge
fund managers on that jury because there
aren't any in Ohio or there aren't very
many in Ohio. And the ones that are,
they're going to strike from the jury
immediately. So you're going to be
talking to people that have never even
heard the term hedge fund who are just,
you know, good middle American
godfearing Americans who get up and go
to their normal jobs, non-financial
world derivatives where the the language
is Greek um and complex even to people
other people that work on Wall Street.
These are bus drivers and cafeteria
workers and and business owners. Sure.
and and very smart people potentially,
but people that don't know what you do.
And so when the government stands up and
say you've got an offshore fund, they're
going to immediately think there's
something wrong with that, even though
that is you have to have an offshore
fund to accept money from nonprofits and
from out from investors outside of the
country. So, it's something that every
hedge fund does. Anyway, like a dozen
things like that that can sound very
suspicious or nefarious, but are just
the normal course of business and
actually required to not break the law
to stay legal. So, you know, all this
like this is how they're going to spin
it. This is how they're going to spin
it. And I'm like, and I've studied
behavioral psychology, so I'm like I and
I'm stud like I know a little bit of how
people work. I know how their minds work
or I've studied that. I've done the
research on it. Um, I've been training
for, you know, whatever it was, 15, 20
years at this point of how to manipulate
people, how to get people to do what you
want. Um,
and I was like, their game plan's pretty
good. And my lawyers were like, yeah,
they've been working on it for a hundred
years, you know, since the the modern
justice system was was really created.
So, they're experts at it. That's what
they're trained for. Um, and I'm like,
"Oh, testify." And they're like, "If you
testify, they're going to make you look
like like you killed uh Abraham Lincoln
and JFK
and that you're stealing babies and you
know, every like, no, you can't
testify." So, I found out who was behind
it. I'm I'm these guys are chirping in
my ear how there's no way you can fight
the system. one of my lawyers who was
not one of the two that went up to
Washington with me, but he said this at
some point in the mix, and I've I I
don't like cussing any more than I have
to, even though I was a sailor and Wall
Street trader, which gives me allowance.
And uh it's hard not to cuss every other
breath. But uh one of my lawyers said,
"Look, Mike,
when you fight the justice system," or
no, he didn't say when you fight. He
said, "When the justice system of the
most powerful country in the world wants
to [ __ ] you,
you're going to get [ __ ]
It's just a matter of how bad it's going
to be." And again, when he told me that,
it was before the reverse profiter and
before everything like kind of really
went down before I found out he was
behind it. I was like, "Ah, no way. I I
can't believe that. I can't believe I've
fought for this country. I've taken a
bullet for this country." Um,
you know, I put my life on the line for
this country for decades
and sacrificed
a lot
of I'm single. I've never been married.
I don't have any kids. I don't have cool
tattoos that I would have like, you
know, all this little stuff, big stuff
um that I've done because I absolutely
wanted to do it. But all the things that
I could have done had I not chosen to
devote my life to this country. I can't
believe and I I can't believe I live in
a country who would not not turn their
back on a one who served because they
didn't know, you know, my years in
intelligence. They knew I was a veteran.
They knew I'd gone to the Naval Academy,
but um didn't know any of the other
parts, but just that they would do to an
American period. Like we don't live in a
country where they they turn where the
justice system turns on its own
citizens. That's what they do in the
countries that I'm trying to take down,
that I'm trying to thwart, that I'm
trying to get regime changes in. That's
what the bad guys do. That's not what
Americans do. Well, yes, it is. And
that's what you know, and that's what
most people listening to this know. And
that's what a lot of people that have
will hear your podcast for the first
time because of me are now hearing. And
the problem with
an hour after this podcast ends or an
hour after they turn it off is they're
going to forget about it. So we could
say the most eloquent thing about how
corrupt the system is and how bad the
system is and not even going into the
bop which is a whole another pit of
vipers and and cesspool
but how much the system needs to be
changed how they target anybody that
they want etc etc the things you've
heard but how
just really corrupt the system is and
how much of an overhaul it needs and
hopefully
Trump's administration has taken some
strides to do those things. I think, you
know, hiring, I think it's the assistant
BOP, who's actually a convicted felon.
Um, that's probably a pretty good start
because he's been there, done that. Uh,
nobody outside the justice system knows
how the system operates, and they don't
want to because they figure, well, if
the government's going after if the
Yeah. If the cops are going after and
the justice department is going after
anybody, they probably did something bad
because we live in America and justice
prevails and you're innocent until
proven guilty. And you and I both know
that's not true at all. Like I was
guilty the day that I got that target
letter. Now I've got to spend millions
of dollars and and and thousands of
hours and the stress and the chaos and
all that that thankfully the Stormcraft
training helped me kind of navigating it
through my intelligence training. Um,
but it didn't help my family, you know,
all the all the stress and worry that
was thrown on them when they found out
about this. And I kept all the I kept
everything from them until I even when I
pled, nobody knew that I pled. This
wasn't a thing because my whole life had
been in the shadows except for, you
know, my overt life and running a hedge
fund. So, even when I plead guilty and
when I was getting investigated, as
quickly as it went,
I thought, "All right, I'll go to Ohio
and I'll plead," which I finally decided
to do. Let me I'll come back to that in
a second. I'll try to not keep you for
10 more hours. Um,
when the DOJ targeted
my they didn't target, but they
threatened to target my family. So, my
mom has passed away at this point. My
dad died when I was 20. So, uh, when I
was in when I was in Annapolis, so my
mom died in 2022,
early 2022.
which is part of the reason why I kind
of was overt and out in the public in
Ukraine, even though I was going to the
front lines, you like I was like, my
sisters can handle it. I don't, but I
wouldn't want to worry my mom with it.
So, I probably would have stayed covert
had my mom still been alive. But, she
had a stroke and passed, unfortunately.
Um, and that was, you know, a surprise,
but [sighs]
all the more reason to go out and help
people who can't help themselves. So,
when Ukraine happened, um, you know,
which was a huge deal at the time and
still is to an effect, but it's been put
on the world's back burner, but, um,
back on point, I found out who was
behind it. They threatened to target my
sisters.
Not in anything that I was doing, but
just in general. They're like, "We're
gonna we're fine. Your sister does this,
your other sister does that. One's kind
of in the public eye.
We'll find something. You know, we can
or you know we can find something we can
spin. Um, and you know, we've done it
before because your lawyers have told
you."
[gasps]
they threatened to go after some of my
co- volunteers that had nothing to do
with any of my covert stuff. Nothing to
do with anything in in the intelligence
community or intelligence world. Just
people trying to help other people who
needed help. Yeah, we're going to go
after them, too. Not just overtly. This
is all kind of back channel type
conversations and stuff. And I'm like,
well, that's not good. And of course,
they're going to threaten. Like, you
hear that? Like everybody that I was in,
every white collar guy I know anyway
that fought it, you know, or that that
even if they took plea deals, their
families were threatened to. Some of
them if they fought it, they went after.
Like one guy I was in with uh his wife
was in another prison
um because he fought it. If he had just
taken the police, she would have been
fine. But they were like, "You haven't
done anything wrong." She said, "Fight
it." Next thing you know, she's
indicted, too. So it happens.
And you know, my lawyers are like, "You
cannot win this." And you're gonna if
you fight it, you're going to go to jail
for many, many years. If you plead,
maybe, you know, we can keep that on the
lower end.
And then I again, I'm just like, "F
this, f this. There's no way. There's no
way." And then finally, one of my
lawyers, and I'll never say who, which
one, but he goes, he said, "Mike,
you know, they're going to spin this
however they want to spin it to make you
look like you killed JFK and that you
started COVID and that, you know, all
they can say whatever they want and it's
up to us to prove that you didn't do
these things."
And I was like, "I can't believe that
they would do that." He goes and and he
said, "If they and if they don't think
that they have enough, they'll just make
some stuff up to throw it in there." And
I was like, "No freaking way." He goes,
"Mike, I've done it. I know they do it.
That was my job. That's why I was good
at what I do." And he didn't say it in a
way that like we always made up they
always made up stuff against people. But
when people above you are like, "Find
something on this guy. And if you don't
find something, we'll find somebody who
will find something." Because you got to
realize and people listening need to
realize the Department of Justice and
all of these different departments
are uh Bureau of Prison, etc., FBI,
they're all bureaucracies. And the
number one rule in a bureaucracy is
don't do anything to get fired.
Like don't do anything to rock the boat.
And then it becomes like, okay, what do
I need to do not to serve justice, but
to get promoted? because that's more
important to me. I need to get promoted.
I need to be I need to move up on this
ladder. I need by this age or this
tenure of my career. And then, you know,
for the DOJ,
it's I need to be this by year two. I
need to be this by year five. And then
I'll go out on in private practice and
uh start defending these guys and start
making, you know, a few million dollars
a year as a defense lawyer. And they do.
And it and they do both. they they
follow that trajectory and then they do
make that money because guys like you
and me hire them because they know the
game plan and to be able to do that if
they need to they will make stuff up. Um
which they certainly did in my case and
unfortunately so did the FBI in my case.
Um the only people who've been decent in
this whole thing have been my probation
people since I've been on supervisor
release. I've got a very good probation
officer. Um, but
so when they targeted when they
threatened to target my family
compounded with all this other stuff and
then you know the going to trial and you
know the penalty
uh that happens most of the time like if
you fight it and lose
you're not going to prison for two years
you're going to prison for like 12. You
get attack you get taxed. you get
penalized for fighting it because f you
for for fighting it and not just taking
the plea deal. So I took a plea. It was
hard hard as I think I made that very
evident. Um but to protect these people
and knowing all that I knew and I
learned from the intelligence who was
behind it uh the fact that it was
basically unwinable.
um and the money that was going to be
involved and the time my business was
cooked. You know, as soon as my
investors found out that I was under
investigation, which nobody knew at that
point, I wasn't under obligation to
disclose it to the investors. Um
as soon as they they because they never
indicted me like they never they never
shut down my business. They never
indicted me. No cop cars or FBI agents
outside my house. Nothing like that
ever. They just wanted to brand me as a
liar so if I blew the whistle they could
say that oh well this guy's a liar he's
a convicted felon of like who's
listening to him so there was no need
for the indictment and the kicking in
the doors and all that stuff and you
know first- time offender nonviolent and
all the volunteer work I had done. So,
um, I finally begrudgingly decided to
take the plea. And this is, you know, it
just goes from kind of bad to worse. And
just another bite of the [ __ ] sandwich
on there. And I'll I'll run through this
as quickly as possible, but like when I
pled,
you know, the point system for everybody
out there, when you when they're racking
up
uh felonies to throw at you in in the
financial world anyway, there's a
there's just a matrix. There's a chart.
And every little thing that they can
think of is like two points or four
points. So all the you used a computer,
so that's two points. And it was over a
million dollars, so that's 16 points.
And it was this and that and blah blah
blah blah blah. All these little
nitpicky things. When I pled there was
no negotiation. They just strongarmed me
on that because I was like, we're going
to here's what you're going to say.
Because I have been through many
negotiations and learned all those
tactics from the in the intelligence
community. And then certainly in in the
Wall Street world, like so in my mind, I
mean, I think I'm a really really good
negotiator and I've got a a proven track
record of kind of being a very solid
negotiator. Again, that's why I think
like I could probably help expedite this
whole Ukrainian Russian thing pretty
quickly, relatively quickly click
quickly because nothing moves quickly
over there. But
um and you know was kind of thinking
that in the whole runup to all of this
happening and maybe something could
happen at the end on the other side of
all of this. But so I'm thinking we're
going to ne negotiate this and my
lawyers are real quick like this isn't a
negotiation. We can ask them and kind of
try to you know elbow in the ribs. Come
on. Like this isn't a big deal. It was
you know $2 million or whatever. Um,
so eventually the points that I pled to
whatever the points totaled equaled
the and they agreed to their ranges as
again you know but on these points
they're do you remember what the ranges
are like from
three years minimum to the the re
they're all recommendations. So the
judge for people who don't know there's
there's just a chart. It's like an Excel
spreadsheet and it's got the number the
points on the side and then out beside
it are columns of first time offender,
second time offender, third time
offender all the way and whatever your
points you just scroll across and the
judges
uh it gives a judge the judge can do
whatever you want. He can give you a
bare minimum sentence or he can max you
out if he doesn't like you or if you
come in and try to be a smartass or say,
you know, anything. He can give you the
maximum. He's not bound by any of this.
But, uh, the that spreadsheet gives him
a pretty good guy him or her a pretty
good guideline of the sentencing range.
So, and it and the ranges, if I remember
correctly, I want to say they're like
three or five years. That may be uh too
broad.
But so the minimum for me and the the
justice they did agree to this. This was
in writing thankfully. They did agree to
the minimum
of whatever my range was. So if it was
from like two years to five years, they
didn't come into court going you need to
send him for five years. Um they
[snorts] came in as saying yeah we're
okay with two years. Well, my number
equated to two years and
uh nine months. So 2.75 years. So a
little bit, let's call it three years.
And I thought, all right, well, I've
done enough good things in my life from
the Naval Academy to all the way to
Ukraine to coming home to leaving the
Naval Academy, taking care of my mom,
saving my business. When my mom was ill
later in her life, I put my whole career
intelligence and hedge fund on the back
burner. came back to Mississippi for
several months to help take care of her,
help take some stress off of my sister
who lived in my hometown um and just be
there for to be a, you know, good son
and a decent human being
for the person I love the most on the
planet, you know, my mother who was not
healthy. The stroke was a surprise that
ultimately killed her, but she wasn't
healthy for several years leading up to
that.
And uh so you know all these things I'm
like okay you know in my rosecolored I'm
still trying to squint through some
rosecolored glasses on all this and I
think all right I can turn I can turn
2.75 years into zero.
I think I can do that. And my lawyer's
like you're going to jail for like at
least 2.5 years. At least 2.5 years. You
need to get ready for that. You need to
get you need to get your head right. And
I was like, "No way." And so, again,
telling you what, of course, you already
know,
once you plead
before it goes, I'm I may I may have my
memory wrong on this. I think maybe even
before you go to because you you sign a
plea agreement and then at some point
later, you go to court and actually
stand before the judge and plead.
>> Yep. And then you go back for sentencing
after that.
>> Right. So, for me, that was six months
later. And it's some where when does the
PSR start?
>> Right in between the guilty plea and the
sentencing
>> of the plea in person.
>> Okay. Okay. So, that's when the [ __ ] hit
the fan in my life when I pled. Again,
I'm I drive up to Columbus, Ohio, and
you know, kind of slink into court by
myself, no family, no support system.
Again, I'm single. Um my lawy
was one of my lawyers was there, I
assume. I can't even remember, but go in
and plead.
And then I'm driving across from Ohio to
see a buddy in North Carolina. And then
I guess I was heading back to Florida. I
can't even remember. Um because I'm a
nomad at this time. When CO
when COVID hit New York, I I gave up my
apartment in New York and was just a
nomad. I was in Europe for most of the
time, again, Ukrainian war. Um but when
I was in the states I would just stay in
hotels and stay in, you know, extended
stay hotels. Um in Florida it has
notoriously cheap hotels, you know,
because of all the vacationers and
stuff. So kind of in the offseason
they're they're very cheap. So anyway,
my phone starts blowing up and you know,
people start finding out. I haven't told
anybody. Well, come to find out because
I'll forget to say this later. I think
it was at this point
the FBI agent who had interviewed dozens
I don't even know how many people dozens
of people. I've I've tried to get foyer
requests, Freedom of Information Act
requests. They've shut me down on those
and the and one of the that's a whole
another story. I won't I won't bore you
with on on in this. But one of them came
back and said, "It's going to take us 7
and 1/2 years to fill this foyer request
for this case that lasted less than a
year and was for like $2.8 million. 7
and a half years." And I'm like, this is
another reason why this is like a huge
FU to Michael Wayne because this is this
is what they were going for, you know,
is to is to target me, make up stuff
against me, effectively frame me, take
me down, and then cover up the truth of
this by saying things like it's going to
take seven and a half years. You think
in seven and a half years I'm going to
actually receive anything? Of course
not. I received something else from
another department.
I can't remember which department
because I put in foyer requests to
everybody. FBI, DOJ, SEC, BOP. As soon
as I got out, I haven't gotten anything
from anybody. I got a letter about a
week ago actually that said, "Hey, it's
been a year." It was an email. It's been
a year since you put in your foyer
request. Over a year. It's been like 14
months or something. Um, are you still
interested in getting that information?
If so, email this email address. And it
wasn't the email address that it came
from. And I'm thinking, are you kidding
me? That's like, you know, that's like
being on hold with AT&T or something for
like, you know, a day and then they come
on and go, "Hey, are you still good to
be on hold or don't you really want to
hang up right now?" because you can hang
up if you want to, otherwise you're
gonna be back on hold and you going,
"Okay, I guess I'm done." Click. I was
like, "No, of course I still want this
stuff."
>> So, they leaked the press release about
your arrest or
>> So,
yes. So, as you know, and as we all know
who've been through this, when I plead
guilty, like as I'm walking out of the
courtroom, there's a press release
>> by the DOJ
>> by the DOJ and and SE and or SEC
saying uh multi-million dollar Ponzi
scheme. Nobody said Ponzi scheme in this
reverse profer. When I walked, this is I
I don't know if there are transcripts of
this or not. I got transcripts of my
plea uh my when I was sentenced my
sentencing hearing because a judge like
made a whole speech of what a great guy
I was. I thought he was going to let me
off. He didn't. But I I'll get to that
in a second. But um
and when I went to the reverse profer,
the first thing that the lady who hated
me I guess the most or at all said,
"We know you didn't steal any money. we
know all the money's accounted for, so
that's not what we're here, but we don't
care.
Let me tell you why you're going down.
Not in so many words. She she did say,
"We we know you haven't stolen any
money. We know that all the money is
accounted for, but you know, you're
still going down." So, uh, then they
proceeded to
make a laughable case that my lawyers
didn't think was so laughable just
because the way they spin it and
everything. We've already talked about
So, in all of this, my entire case,
entire investigation, whatever you want
to call it, nobody ever said hedge fund
or excuse me, nobody ever said Ponzi
scheme.
>> And they put that in the press release.
>> That was the press release. So, I'm
halfway across Ohio or or West Virginia
or somewhere driving east and my phone
starts blowing up from people who don't
call me.
Both of my sisters backtoback voicemail.
What's she calling me now? Voicemail.
One of my best friends who knew this who
who didn't know about the DOJ but knew
the SEC was was knocking around because
he had been on my board. Um so they had
interviewed him. Um of course he had
nothing but good things to say.
Everybody nobody had anything bad to
say. I'll tell you what they what what I
ultimately pled
for in a in a second. But so my phone
starts blowing up. It's about four or
five people and that was it. But that
was enough. So I start listening to the
messages and they're all like so my
buddies my buddy and his wife who's now
one of my one of my good friends too.
They both independently call me and
they're like, "Man, I just heard like
I'm so sorry. Please give me a call. Let
me know what you need." My sisters call
me and they're both individually.
They're not together. Like one's in New
York, one's in Mississippi at the time.
Um, still is. And they're freaking out,
dude. I've never heard them sound like
that before in my life. They were
calling like like they were calling
someone who was on the ledge of the
Empire State Building about to jump.
Like that's the they were and trying to
talk that person off. They were crying.
Mike, just please call me back. please
call me back. Whatever's happening, you
know, it's not that bad." And I'm just
like, "Oh my god." Like, how did first
of all, how do they even know this? The
FBI agent forwarded it to everybody that
he could think of, which did not include
my sisters. Maybe my friend, my friend,
and in that was on that had been been on
my board. That's how I found out that
the FBI agent had done it. Um, but he
has sent this thing out to dozens of
people
in a blatant attack to just ruin my
reputation
>> to get the get it out there that I'm now
going to be you're not really a
convicted felon until you get sentenced.
>> Um, but that I had plead guilty to a to
one felony count of wire fraud because
wire fraud is just a catchall for any
sort of fraud.
>> Yeah. Anyone could get charged with that
>> and that's the simplest thing to charge.
And again, it it had nothing to do with
actually wiring money. It's like postal
fraud or whatever. It's like if you've
ever sent a mail piece of mail, like
they could charge you for postal fraud,
I guess. Um but so I'm like, well, [ __ ]
the cat's out of the bag, obviously.
>> But I didn't know how much. And I just
assume maybe only those people know for
what or maybe only those people that
that the FBI agent emailed served no
purpose of justice whatsoever. Like, and
that's a big thing even in my pardon
petition of like, here are all the
things that all these bad people did
just to get promoted. And basically just
because they're attack dogs. When the
master says sick them, they sick them.
They don't give a [ __ ] If you're guilty
or innocent, they just know they got to
take you down and they need a scalp on
the wall because that's what they've
been told to do. And if they don't do
it, maybe they get they're probably not
going to get fired, but maybe they get
shifted from Washington DC to
the Netherlands of any place they don't
want to go. I don't want to name a
terrible city because I don't want to
get have anyone in those cities that I
may know get mad at me, but of a place
that they don't want to live or work,
right? that's not Washington that's not
as fun and and and
metropolitan and cultural as Washington
DC. Um and that's what happens you know
if they don't do the master's bidding
then that's what happens and they don't
get and they certainly don't get
promoted. So in some small way I
I think they're are very corrupt people
and and that that just take people down
just to take people down. They take
people down because that's their job,
but they sort of maybe take pleasure in
it. Um, and they don't care about the
repercussions and they don't care about
the consequences and they don't care
about justice, which is the main thing
that everybody, every single person in
the FBI and every single person that
works for the Department of Justice
should care about justice and serving
justice. Even in the face of your boss
telling you to defang this guy, put some
more scalps on the wall. You've got a
quota, damn it. and we need you to hit
your quota. So find some more criminals
because they're out there. And if you
can't find them, invent some because
they're probably criminals. We just
haven't caught them yet. So we go to the
PSR. I am telling my lawyers the whole
time, we're, you know, ask for zero. Ask
for zero. We're going to try to get
probation.
And of course after I don't know if this
happened to you but I think it h it's
very common that they [clears throat]
backdoored me the they they so two years
and nine months turned into six and a
half years. they added all these other
incentives or other points to the to
that spreadsheet
>> to the PSR
>> and uh the the group or person or
investigator if you want to call them
that that does the PSRs they're they're
not even lawyers like they're as I
learned this
they're I'm not even sure who they work
for if they work for the BOP or the DOJ
but the DOJ basically basically handed
them a list and said add these things
add these enhancements to his uh to the
plea deal or to the to the
recommendation to the judge sentencing
what guidelines whatever it all it's all
labeled. So
less than three years turns into a 6 and
1/2 year minimum. It was like 6 and 1/2
years to nine years or something like
that. But again they agreed to the low
end of the minimum. So I'm looking at
six and six six and a half years now.
And again, I'm furious. I multiple times
through this whole process, I learned
something new and just I'm just like, I
can't believe this is happening. This is
this is beyond ridiculous. And this is
another one. And I said, if I knew it
was going to be six and a half years, I
never would have plead guilty. We would
we would be fighting this because you
think just logically six and a half
years even if we go in and show
a remarkable
civil servant and humanitarian
um it's not going to turn into zero uh
because that's just asking for too much.
And my lawyer's like you'll be lucky to
get five. you know, anything anything at
five or lower, uh, you should, you know,
be doing back handsp springs out of the
courtroom in in happiness. And I was
like, I still can't believe this. I was
like, we're we're still asking for zero.
I don't give a [ __ ] if it's 16 years,
we're still asking for zero. Um,
and the night before we turned in the
PSR, when we had to finalize it and
submit it to that investigator the next
day,
I said, "Okay,
change zero to six months."
And so he did. And he was like, because
he his first draft was like five and a
half years or something like that. And I
was like, "No way. I told you zero." I
was kind of irritated at my lawyer, my
main lawyer. [snorts] And
so the PSR or our our rebuttal to the
PSR, the PSR is its own entity. So they
interview you and they do all this and
they create their own thing. The woman
who did mine
was in Florida. I I'm not sure where she
was, honestly. I was living in Florida
at the time. Um, she had no idea what
she was doing. She had no idea about
finance. She had no She actually
referred to me as a woman at one point.
So, she's just cutting and pasting from
old PSRs, you know, just halfass doing
her job as 90% of the people that work
in any of these jobs do, unfortunately.
and we pay the price for that,
unfortunately.
Is you're is the further you get down
the chain, the less people actually
work. the the people up the chain, the
the prosecutors and the FBI agents
seem to, in my experience, be more
concerned about not screwing up and
getting promotions
than they are about serving justice. And
then the further you get down the chain
to like the PSR, probation, uh, Bureau
of Prisons, it's just it feels to me,
and again, just this is just my
experience.
It's more about how little what's the
smallest amount of work I can do and not
get fired. So then you get PSRs that are
gibberish and make no sense. Uh you get
PSRs that have
refer to the male uh defendant as a
woman with the wrong last name. Like all
these things and it's just, you know,
every time the phone rang or every time
I got an email from my lawyer, I was
like, "All right, here's going to be
another big bite of a giant [ __ ]
sandwich." Because it never that's just
what it was. Every time every piece of
information was another piece of bad
news. So, you kind of think maybe or I
maybe naively thought when I pled,
we're towards the end of it. No. And I
knew, you know, that prison was a
possibility, but even before then, I was
like, okay, we've all agreed on this.
We're all kind of on the same team now.
They're their job is done. The DOJ's job
is done. The FBI's job is done. They've
won. And I said that multiple times. I
was to my lawyer. I was like, why do
they keep hammering this? They've won to
take the victory. Like why does two two
and three/4ers years need to turn into
six and a half years? And I don't even
think that had anything to do with the
motivation of of how of defanging me. I
just think it had to do with that's just
what they do. Like cuz [ __ ] you. You
just plead guilty. And and you've seen
this and anybody that's actually been to
prison, and I don't want to spend two
more hours talking about the whole
prison experience,
but the day you plead guilty,
you are less than human. You are. And in
in my experience of going to a camp,
which was minimum security, I never saw
bars. I never saw handcuffs. I never got
strip searched. It was still a really
shitty place. um full of the dumbest,
laziest,
sadistic people that you could put in a
in a working environment who are all the
CEOs and the warden and the case
managers. Um and you name it, the
education people for the most part and
you had some outliers there. You had a
few good people that I I hope don't get
too corrupted by the terribleness of
everybody else. But it's
in their mind we are stray dogs. And so
my thought of most people you you have
you can react to a stray dog walking
down the street in three ways generally.
You can feed it and you got the one out
of a hundred person that will and maybe
take care of it and help it. You got
90 people of a hundred that are just
going to ignore it. Like [ __ ] that dog,
you know? Screw him. He's stray dog. I'm
not going to help that dog. And he's
taking up too me spending half a second
looking at it was half a second. I
didn't Now I'm mad at this dog because
he took half a second of my life. And
then you have 10 of those, nine of those
people or whatever the whatever numbers
remaining uh that
will actively go try to beat the dog. So
that's the same my that's my experience
kind of going in prison. That's my
prison experience in a nutshell. Uh once
I finally got there, I was sentenced to
answer your question to a year and a
day. The prosecution asked for six and a
half years. I'll let me circle back to
the judge in a second, but my my prison
experience to jump ahead a bit was
basically they treated us all like stray
dogs. They just didn't give a flying
[ __ ] about any of us. Um, and I was at a
camp, man. This is where like the camps
are designed
for re-entry into society. The whole
purpose of the camp because they can let
anybody out from any level of camp. Um,
you can and I'm not sure if you stepped
down, but a lot most of the guys in my
prison, my camp were stepped down from
higher level security.
>> Which camp were you at?
>> I was at Montgomery FB, Federal Prison
Camp, Montgomery.
>> Okay. Yeah, I went from a low to a camp.
>> Okay. So,
but these are guys coming from higher
level security. A lot of drug charges, a
lot of gun charges, a lot of meth, you
know. Um, but a lot of these guys have
been in prison for quite a while. So,
they need help thinking about getting
back into society. You've been behind
bars in some capacity for 10 years or
so. Like, you need a little guidance of
what to expect and a little, you know,
help. And that's what the camps are
really supposed to be for. They are not
in any way, shape, or form. So, uh,
yeah, it's just lazy, terrible people.
The camp I was in would have been
awesome if it wasn't for the people
working there and the fact that the
people working there had done absolutely
nothing to keep the camp up. So, it's
like going to a summer camp that hadn't
been maintained for 15 years. Beautiful
campus. It's like a college campus. It's
on a military base. It's on the I guess
Montgomery Air Force Base. It's just the
name of the I don't know. I don't think
the Air Force base has a specific name.
I may be wrong on that. But it's off in
the corner on the base overlooking golf
course on one side, river on a bluff
like 100 feet overlooking the river on
another side. The other two sides are
just buildings and then you know the
free world. You could walk off. You
didn't we had no fences or anything. Um
you would, you know, pay for that if you
did. They would find you quickly.
But uh it it could have been a great
place for rehabilitation for people who
needed it. For the white collar guys
like me and there were only maybe 20 of
of guy 20 white collar guys there. The
whole camp is supposed to be white
collar. There were like 20 of us out of
750.
Everybody else had worked their way down
from higher level. Um, and you know,
there were some straight up criminals
there who were doing more crime in
prison than they were doing on the
outside and probably making more money
in prison. Again, that's maybe a whole
another episode. And and and it's not
another episode because you guys talk
about it in all your other episodes cuz
it's the same in every prison.
>> I had a bunk mate that was scamming
people uh going on dates like on on
online or whatever and scamming older
women.
>> Gez, really?
>> There's so many scams and it's at the
camp.
>> There's always That was at the camp.
>> That was at the camp. I mean, you would
see it at the low, of course, and higher
security, but at the camp. Yeah. Because
it's those I mean, you could have 10
years on your sentence and get to a
>> Yeah. Anything 10 [clears throat] or
under, right?
>> Say you got 15 years, you work down to
10. Are you really rehabilitated at that
point, too? Especially if you've done
like a $200 million fraud or something.
>> So, I I've seen a lot. It's crazy.
>> Yeah. You've got some great stories to
tell. And and that that's one good thing
about this podcast. It's like there's so
many stories that just never get told
outside of the the community, you know,
the the the quote unquote justice
impacted community. And the I'm in a few
support groups where people talk about
things like that. But uh yeah, outside
and that's what I was saying earlier of
of the world needs to know but has no
idea and just doesn't care. And people
have their own lives and own priorities
and things like that. So everybody
doesn't suddenly need to I don't expect
the world to suddenly become justice
advocates but any kind of exposure of
like these guys are really getting
screwed. And one commonality I had with
everybody in the camp and everybody in
prison was even the guys who were like
oh yeah I was totally guilty still got
screwed in some respect by the system.
Um so and and that was in some way I
thought I was the only one. So to find
out that everybody got screwed, I I
wasn't happy about that because that
means, you know, I'm never happy when
something bad happens to somebody else.
Uh unless they're trying to kill me. But
uh I was like, well, at least I'm in
we're all in this together to some
extent. Like we're kind of bonded in in
in a small way because we all got
screwed by the system. Um but I'll come
back to my trial because I do want to
say I want to give a shout out to to
judge to my judge. He he did me a solid.
So, we go to the sentencing hearing and
two of my investors in my management
company who were two great friends of
mine um who I invited friends and family
who could afford it to invest in this
company
um to make them all rich. Like I had
high expectations of this and we were
going to be rich. We the company was
valued at $70 million until the Fed
stepped in and quickly made that value
zero and now it's a dead company. Hedge
fund, they never shut down my hedge
fund. Here's another interesting fact.
Nobody ever shut me down. Nobody ever
seized anything of my own of my
possessions. Nobody seized anything of
the hedge fund. Everything was going
until the day that I shut it down
because I knew that I was going to
prison. So, if somebody's committed
fraud
for [snorts] million multi-million
dollar Ponzi scheme, as the headline
said of the DOJ press release said
that the FBI so kindly distributed to
dozens or hundreds of people,
why would you let this guy keep managing
money? Why wouldn't you seize everything
that he has, especially when it's other
people's money that are still sitting in
those accounts? They didn't do any of
that. Again, all these little things
that kind of show maybe there's more to
this than meets the eye when the justice
system goes after somebody. And they
call him a fraudster. They call him a
Ponzi schemer, but they don't stop him
from running his business. He just stops
it on December 31st of 2023 because I
knew I was going to prison in 2020,
probably going to prison in 2024.
So, I just wrapped it up at the end of
the year, redeemed everybody, sent all
their money back. They were worried sick
because they found out from the FBI
agent that uh that I had plead guilty.
So, now everybody's like, "Where the
[ __ ] my money?" You know, as they
should have been, as I would have been,
it's like, "It's coming. We, you know,
we got to wrap up the end of the year
just like normal any kind of
redemption." And for a hedge fund,
they're such big investments. Like, my
minimum investment was a million
dollars. So these are all this all
pretty sizable chunks of money. You got
to make sure you you cross all your tees
and dot all your eyes again. So you
don't
try to solve one problem and create two
more by missing some regulation or
something and get sued by them or the
SEC comes back into the picture,
whatever it may be. So everybody got
their money back. Everybody in the hedge
fund made money. So they ultimately I
think still, you know, think fondly of
me other than the fact that they'll
never do business with me again because
I'm a convicted felon. So mission
accomplished. Uh United States of
America. Um but so sentencing back to
that and I we'll wrap that part up.
I go to sentencing in
March or April. I pled in October of 23
and then March or April was my
and I'm worried because this district is
supposedly notorious has a bad
reputation for just hammering uh white
collar guys.
So I'm like that's not great. I'm
looking at six and a half years minimum.
My lawyer is like you're going to jail
for at least five years. I'm like this
is not going the direction I want it to
go. Um, and then in most sentencing
hearings, what's it called? Allocution,
something like that, where you can speak
for yourself. Do you know what I'm
talking about?
>> I don't know what the word is, by the
way.
>> Yeah. Some fancy fancy legal word, but
you're allowed to stand up and
>> address.
>> Address the court, right? And you
certainly can't. So, from the day that I
pled going forward, you know, six months
or whatever it was, I I kept my mouth
shut because I plead guilty. So, I've
got to fall on my sword because the last
thing you want to do is plead guilty and
then turn around the next day or two
weeks later or two months later and say,
"I'm innocent. I only plead guilty
because they were threatening my sisters
and my and my volunteers and that let me
tell you who's behind this and and it's
going to blow your mind and it's going
to sound like a Tom Clancy novel." Um,
>> that's what Brian Coberger is trying to
do right now.
>> Is that right?
>> Yeah. The the guy that killed the Idaho
Four.
>> Geez. He's trying to resend his guilty
plea.
>> So, and that's that's a bad move.
[laughter] And I and I mean I I threw
that out there a couple couple of three
times to my lawyer. I was like, "F
this." And I'm I'm telling call the the
they the woman handed off the case to
another guy who turned out, you know,
he's still an attack dog. He's still
sickum and trying to get everything he
can, but uh he I think he's ultimately a
semidecent person in that. and maybe he
just it was on the tail end of it so he
just didn't he wasn't that vested into
it. So,
um at towards the end of it, you know,
he he was sort of decent, but uh I was
like, "Call him and tell him that I'm
taking I'm taking my plea back, you
know, because the press releases and
all." And then they add to my sentence
guidelines and all this stuff. All these
lies show up in the PSR, the the
pre-scencing report, the PSR, which
[snorts] is by far for anybody facing
this now, you should know this is the
most important document of your life
until you are off of supervised release
and maybe even beyond that because
everybody that your judge is going to
read it, the prosecution is certainly
going to read it. um they have a hand in
creating it of course, but when you if
you go to prison, your case manager is
going to read it. Your unit manager may
or may not read it if they get involved
in your case. Your parole officer for
supervised release is going to read it.
Everybody's going to read this and
that's their first impression of you.
So, you better prepare for your
interview. And I did. And I think I gave
a pretty good one. Um but I'm falling on
my sword this whole time, right? Because
I plead guilty. And that you if you the
quickest way to get six and a half years
turn into 20 years is to say I'm
innocent. I didn't do anything but you
plead guilty. No, but yeah, like I did
plead guilty, but I'm not really guilty.
That's not good. So, I wasn't able I
didn't talk to anybody. So, a few people
reached out and I'm like, I can't talk
about it, but there's more to the story.
I'll tell it to you at some point. even
some of my investors um [snorts] who the
FBI had completely and totally convinced
that I had stolen their money. And I
think this is where I was going on my
sentencing hearing. The judge, this
worried me, the judge did not allow
anybody to speak on my behalf. He's
like, I guess that he never said this in
court, but going into court, it was
basically the mentality was he's heard
it all before, so he knows what you're
going to say. Uh, so there's no point in
you saying it. So let's save us all some
time. I know you're gonna say Mike's a
great guy, but anybody that wants to
call him an [ __ ] come on forward. So
he could have had a hundred people that
came and said that I stole their money
or or was the bad guy or, you know, rob
Santa Claus last Christmas, whatever
they wanted to say, because the the the
DOJ was saying everything. They were
just making things up for the PSR, for
the plea deal, for everything. um just
inventing things. And I don't think I'm
special on that. And I found that out in
camp that they just throw
wood on the fire and then throw gas on
top of that wood just because you can,
just because that's their job. And why
not? Again, stray dogs. So, let's kick
them a few times because we can. And I
was I was bullied in high school and now
I hate the world. And so, I'm a federal
prosecutor and I'm out to get everybody.
Uh well, you know, I being facitious
there, but it's not far from that, I
think. Um but so two of my good friends
come and and speak in court to the judge
of this guy's a piece of [ __ ] He stole
all my money. He's a he's a one guy
called me a mini maid off. Um
and I'm just, you know, I'm just sitting
there. I'm like, "No, that's not true.
That's not true. That's not true."
Like I didn't this is not I nowhere in
anything did it say anything about a
Ponzi scheme or using money for personal
gains or personal use or anything like
that and then one of the guys the judge
stopped him and he goes wait a minute
what are you saying
and he said I'm he's stole my money and
he did this and he's a mini man off and
he said are you you're saying that he he
lined his own pockets with your
And my former friend
goes, "Yeah."
And he goes, "Okay, continue."
And I'm thinking, "Well, at least the
judge kind of knows what's going on
here."
And so my my buddy kept on talking. He
finished. The other buddy came up and
said his piece.
And then I get up and I say I do the
allocution or whatever it's called where
you can say your your piece. And I say a
whole thing of like and this is one
thing I didn't think about early but it
was inevitable of of not what happened
to me cuz I you know that's not like I'm
again I don't have kids or a wife or
anybody in my immediate orbit that's got
to
take the take the blow of this. In my
mind this was all on me. Now, that was a
dumb that was naive on my part because
the frag radius is to my sisters and to
my extended family and maybe even
probably not to my friends, but they
don't necessarily I lost so many friends
in this just because they don't want
anything to do with a guy who's a
convicted felon. Um,
and nobody wants the real story and
nobody got the real story until after my
sentencing.
So I gave my alleocution and I was just
like, you know, I'm sorry for what I
did. I brought shame on my family. I was
a, you know, I was a pillar of the
community. I was a volunteer. I was
helping people in Ukraine. I was running
a great hedge fund. I was helping my
mother and my family and doing, you
know, it was just a a
normal, nobody knew anything about the
intelligence life, but even on my normal
civilian life, I was just a good guy,
you know, helping people and and trying
to make a living.
And of course, this all came as a
bombshell to everybody. And they're
like, "What? this that guy like he went
to the Naval Academy, honor and duty and
trust and loyalty and all this and and
uh and all right out the window of
course and of course everybody believes
what they the two uh uh press releases
even though they've heard nothing from
anybody else else and that starts the
rumor mill. No newspaper reporters, no
investigations from you know uh even my
local newspaper in my hometown, nothing
like that. The only two things that were
out there were the press releases from
the DOJ for my and the SEC. So maybe
kind of three things, but they all said
the same thing. It was basically one
article regurgitated. All it was 90%
false
and it was about 70% false,
29%
true, but not illegal. like we like I
mentioned earlier, uh they spun things
that were perfectly legal to make them
sound illegal
and like 1%
like the truth sort of because what I
pled to to kind of back up a little bit
when I pled
I said I will plead to one thing and it
was that and again it gets a little
complicated on the on the whole hedge
fund side of things But I had a big
investor
that had in the hedge fund world size
makes a big difference. And in the
actual hedge fund, I had an investor
that was going that came in for three
years. Like this was a package deal. All
my investors in the management company
that I allegedly defrauded ultimately
and were my so-called quote unquote
victims. Um they knew all of this. was
all in many emails and and contracts and
d like it was again open kimono open
book overcommunication on all this
stuff. So
one of my or my biggest investor came in
and their their
contract and our arrangement was they
would put in $20 million into the actual
fund because a lot of what I managed
were in separately managed accounts. It
wasn't actually in the fund. I was
trading it and managing it and earning
fees from it or we as the hedge fund but
it wasn't directly deposited into my
hedge fund. So that was where I was
trying to steer things because
money attracts money. So the more money
you manage the more money you attract.
So some and I won't dive into the
reasons why behind that but that's just
the nature of the beast and there's no
way around it. So, this company was
going to come in, put in $20 million,
and they did this. They put in $20
million, although they actually didn't
put in the full 20, but they put in like
15 or 17, I can't remember. Um, exactly
the exact number. They take a percentage
of the fees we're charging, the way we
earn revenue. So they take a a small
slice of those fees,
but they've put in, you know, $20
million and we're earning fees on that
$20 million.
And the whole thing, and this is this is
done a million times a year. It's a
common is extremely common and of course
100% legal,
but it's called a seed fund or or an
accelerator fund. They come in and they
put in money. It usually stays in in our
case for three years. It's usually two
or three years and then at the end of
three years they pull their money and
they keep the fee split. So that's their
long-term they kind of have a long-term
dividend on this. Uh and they only have
to tie up $20 million for three years.
And again, we're earning fees on that
$20 million. So anyway,
I had a new investor come into the
management company in 2020.
Maybe maybe 2020
2020 or 2021. I don't think it was
during COVID.
So I in the 20s in the 2020s early um
or maybe 2019. I don't It's somewhere in
that in that ballpark. I I should have
looked at this. I I haven't looked at
the numbers in years,
she came in
a few like six months before that
company was going to withdraw their 20
million.
And I told her about this. I was like
here our assets of management are hund
and something I can't remember
exactlyund blah blah million whatever
that number was at the time because it
fluctuates as we make money or every now
and then we would lose money in a month
more investors are coming in people are
making redemptions so the money's never
like solidified it changes every couple
months or so as people come and go and
we make profits and losses not by a ton
but you know 120 million turns into 131
million and it goes back to 127 million
etc. Excuse
[clears throat] me. Um,
so I said, but in the actual I told her
in the actual fund, the company, our
seed company is scheduled to pull their
20 million. Now, I'm going to try to
talk them out of that, but they're
they're probably going to pull their
money because they don't have to. We
were a good investment for them. So, if
they don't have anywhere to put that 20,
that they can just leave it with me,
which is all I wanted them to do.
And also, it's a fraction of the fund.
It's not a small number, but it's it's
not
uh we were managing more than 20 a heck
of a lot more than $20 million. So, $20
million withdrawal sucked, but it wasn't
a backb breaker. It wasn't going to
crush the company.
So, in I had a deposition at some point
after I received that first target
letter and
they asked if I told her that and I said
yes. And they said, "You know, do you
have proof of that?" And I was like,
"No, was we had, you know, a hundred,
not a hundred, but we had a dozen
conversations before she made her
investment." But I remember we
specifically talked about that on this
day. Um, like cuz it was a unique kind
of situation of our conversation was a
snowstorm and which never really happens
in Mississippi and she lived in
Mississippi. Um, so I remembered it
pretty clear. I remember everything we
talked about in in those handful of
conversations. We talked other times on
the phone. and things like that. Anyway,
my lawyer spoke to her and asked her if
she remembered that conversation and she
said, "I remember the conversation, but
I don't remember what we talked about."
And which is every conversation
anybody's ever had, right? Do you
remember a conversation you had three
years ago?
>> With one person who was maybe gonna
invest in your nightclub and then
didn't, then maybe did. You know, it's
kind of one of those things. It's like
if you recorded, you either record every
conversation you have, which is doable
in today's age, I guess, but or you make
notes immediately afterwards. And if you
did that, you would spend half your life
in conversations and the other half
dictating what you talked about and then
sending it to that person who you had
the conversation with and saying,
"Please verify what we talked about and
confirm this because I don't want to go
to jail three years from now or 10 years
from now or whatever it may be."
But that was what I ultimately pled that
I didn't disclose to her that that big
investor was leaving the fund. And I had
disclosed it. I just didn't document it.
And as any white collar uh felon will
tell you, if you don't document it, it's
you're wrong or it's illegal or whatever
the cliche is. it. So when I pled, I was
like, I'm not I don't want to plead
anything, but if that's one thing that
if she doesn't remember it and you put
her on the stand and they put her on the
stand and she doesn't remember it, then
I can see how that can be spun to be a
risk that I did not disclose or that I
cannot prove that I did disclose. And I
was like, that's [snorts] a
effed up way to kind of back into a
guilty plea or verdict or whatever. But
I can see how they could spin that in
court if nothing else once they've
confused the jury enough that um that
could possibly work. And then you add in
all the other things about the threats
and who was behind it. And so I pled.
So, fast forward, um, they've added all
this other stuff to the plea agreement.
And my lawyer kept saying, "Who cares?
It's one count of wire fraud." They
could say, you know, you killed, again,
killed JFK. It doesn't matter. You've
got one count of wire fraud. It doesn't
Who gives a [ __ ] what they say in this
actual plea agreement that you signed or
in the PSR or in their uh press
releases? You're you that doesn't change
one count of wire fraud. And my argument
back to that was it changes the the
reputational damage because anybody
that's going to read any of those things
that's going to be hanging around my
neck for the rest of my life long after
I'm out of prison and have served
whatever debt to society karma has has
dictated.
So and you know now I've got the hedge
fund Ponzi scheme multi-million dollar
Ponzi scheme $2.8 8 million
multi-million
uh Ponzi scheme hedge fund manager as
the headline even though and here's the
kicker at my sentencing hearing the
judge took a break for like an hour and
I think he went back and reread the PSR
and my support letters and and I I
showed up to court with like a million
dollars. So, um, just on my just that I
had that I hadn't that the lawyers
hadn't got a hold of yet. Um, so and and
and I think he said somewhere in there
that's unusual. He goes, "Usually when
there's a Ponzi scheme, there's zero
money because the guy's blown it all on,
you know, cocaine and strippers or
whatever, gone to Vegas or what have
you, bought yachts with it." um whatever
Ponzi schemers do, whatever maid off did
and I didn't, you know, again, all the
money's accounted for and I brought a
lot to court and turned it over at at
I think that impressed the judge and
then he gave a speech at the end of it
and he basic he said like I I got the
transcript as soon as it was available
just for his speech because I found out
after the fact like yeah judges my Both
my lawyers that were there at the
sentencing, they were like, "Yeah, that
was awesome." I was like, "Really?" And
they were like, "Yeah, man." Like, "You
heard what he said, right?" I was like,
"Yeah." I was loving most of it. Um cuz
he kept he would say some bad things. He
was like, "Well, we have to serve
justice and we got to the punishments's
got to fit the crime." And I'm thinking,
"Oh crap." And then he's like, "But this
this is the most he" He said, "I've been
on the B." He's in his 80s. Um he said
something to the effect of and this is
almost an exact quote because I I
remembered it.
I've served on this bench for over 30
years and this is the most unusual
wire fraud case I've ever seen. Um
something to that effect, but this is a
direct quote.
This was not a Ponzi scheme.
this defendant did not line his own
pockets with the victim's money.
This was not a Ponzi scheme. And then he
went on to tell like I tried to uh build
the company that other factors came into
it and the company went under and and
uh which were kind of like the way the
prosecution had framed it. It all kind
of he was he was right that I mean and I
did I mean I tried to build a and had
built we were we were doing great and
getting better every single month and
every single quarter
with new investors great performance
growing business. Now we've got at that
point I think five or six year track
record which is a big hurdle to clear
once you have like five years in that in
that world. Now you're talking, man. You
got $100 million under management. You
got a great five-year track record. No
losing years, no losing quarters, 20%
average a year net to investors.
Very unique, competitively advantaged
trading strategy that nobody else is
doing. Uh, nobody that I knew about was
doing. Uh, we're going to be a billion
dollars in like two years. We're gonna
this is we're about to crush it. And
then the government comes in and just
takes it all away. And, you know,
crushed it for me, but crushed it for my
other investors, too. these guys, you
know, these are people that were my
friends and and a and a couple of family
members who I'm thinking we're I'm going
to make you all rich. You know,
congratulations. We're all on the gravy
train and I'm going to work my ass off
to make sure that happens. And I was
doing it and it was working until it
didn't until it wasn't until the
government came in and said, "We got to
take this guy down." And and these
people are are collateral damage, his
investors, and they've they've lost
money because the company has to shut
down.
But we still get to defang this guy. Um,
but so the judge ultimately kind of said
some really nice things about me at at
sentencing, which you know, at first I
was like, "Oh my god, shut up." And then
he kept talking. I was like, "Say more.
Keep talking." [laughter] And I thought
for a second like, "He's going to let me
off. This is all in my head." I'm
thinking, you know, six and a half years
is about to go to zero. This is exactly
what I planned. Um, and then but he gave
me a year and a day. And for people
people that know, they know that's a
great sentence. That's about as good as
it's going to get if you don't have like
the judge's son tied up in a basement
somewhere or you know something to
blackmail him with or something. Um
that's as good as it could have get
could have gotten. And like my sister
was in the court and so I had done a
little research of course you know
coming into this or a lot of research
really so I knew what that extra day
meant and she didn't. And she was like,
you know, most people hear a year and a
day. Yeah, here's another day for you,
sucker. You know, you're felling, you
piece of [ __ ] Um, stay one more day
just because you're you're you're the
dredge of society. But we know in the in
that's been through the system that day
actually puts you in a different realm,
different category where now you can
have good time credit and you can have
FSA fully kick in and all the good stuff
to where you can actually get out much
earlier. If he had sentenced me to one
year, I would have had to stay almost
that entire year. But because he
sentenced me to a year and one day, I
was outside that one-year threshold by
one day. Um, so I served six months in
camp, which was supposed to be five, but
you know, again, we can talk about the
BOP and how just lazy and dumb and just
terrible people that generally work in
that in that agency.
um they just didn't get around to it.
And so, you know, and me and a lot of
people and vindictive and I can we can
go on and on about the food strike and
them just retaliating against us for no
reason other than they just had nothing
else to do but go kick a stray dog. So,
um but I've kept you too long as it is.
But so I served served six months,
should have served five, served six, was
at the halfway house for two weeks.
That was supposed to be like two days or
a day, but they had just changed
managers and the two weeks was just
because just why don't I have to stay
here two weeks? Like politely asking
this. They were all very very nice. Um
but they had, you know, they had made
their own policy and the twoe minimum
was just because because that's a good
number. It's like but my sister's house
is ready. It's been inspected. I'm going
to go stay with them. I've got a great
support system. Uh, everything's ready.
Everything's ready for me to go to home
confinement. Yeah. Okay. Two weeks. Are
you sure? Because like I'm ready to go.
Like my car's like, "No, two weeks."
Okay. So, I stayed there for two weeks
and then I was on home confinement for
two weeks and then I've been on
supervisor lease since then. So, that's
that's the story.
>> What do you do now?
>> So, I'm writing a book um that it's a
leadership book about Stormcraft
um about I mentioned a little bit. It
was a leadership doctrine of of that I
developed starting after 911 in in the
intelligence world of just
how to not only navigate chaos but to
convert it from a threat into an
advantage. So the title of the book, the
working title of the book, I've still
got to finish it. I haven't finished it
yet. It is for pre-sale. I've got it for
pre-sale on my website.
Um shameless plug official michael.com.
uh,
kids helping Ukraine.org is still up and
running. If anybody wants to donate and
help help orphans and children in
Ukraine, all that money goes straight to
them. Uh, 501c3 nonprofit. But I am
finishing a book.
It's called the working title is the
chaos advantage
of how you can use chaos to your
advantage. And I've certainly uh I
developed that in the intelligence
world, but it worked. I found quickly
that it worked equally as well. All the
steps and the processes and just the
whole
way to navigate through it when the
world feels overwhelming. And this is
not just for people running businesses
and CEOs. This is for anybody that feels
chaos, anybody that feels that their
life is spinning out of control for a
minute or for a year or all the time
when they wake up in the morning. Um,
it's a it's a are methods that are
weren't developed in a classroom or a
think tank. They were developed in the
field. They were developed in war. They
were developed uh in very chaotic
situations in very dangerous places
around the world in my intelligence
career. And I found as I moved into the
knock side of things and started working
in hedge funds and venture capital, they
worked just as well in those
environments, I was trading volatility.
I was trading options. So volatility
inherently is chaotic. So it was very
high pressure situations trading
Stormcraft. The the techniques and the
frameworks worked amazing there for
myself and my team. And it's just it's
for people, but it's also for teams as
to how to lead teams through chaotic
situations. Your company's going
bankrupt, the market's crashing, uh
you're about to get fired, you know,
anything you can think of. And then, of
course, that's worked in disaster relief
in Ukraine, in America for, you know,
tornadoes, hurricanes, everything I've
done with Oasis. And it certainly
worked. Um, and I was very glad I had
this knowledge and this this skill set
and these frameworks when I was
targeted. Um because that became
obviously very personal. Being targeted
by something you love more than almost
anything which was the United States of
America and defending it suddenly turns
its back on you. That's a very uncertain
and chaotic time and you don't know
what's going to happen. So and it worked
well there. So, coming out of camp and
just as we all are and anybody watching
any of your uh any of your podcast
has learned and and all of your guests
know is just it's just hard coming out
because you have a black cloud and a
scarlet letter. You have a black cloud
over you and a scarlet letter on your
forehead and you are a convicted felon.
It doesn't matter what your story is.
Innocent people go to jail every day.
even for guilty people who go to prison
and serve their time and pay their debt
to society as a felon, that's a life
sentence. Um, you've turned it into
something amazing and and big props and
big congratulations to you. Um, you
know, it's the it's the Marcus Aurelius
quote of uh the impediment to action
becomes the action. What stands in the
way becomes the way. You've done that.
instead of using it as an obstacle and
trying to run away from it, you you've
used it as a as a method to create
something great and hopefully in a
bigger and better place than you ever
thought you would be before any of this
happened. Um,
it's tough coming out and I don't want
to take too much of your time because
everybody knows that, everybody that's
been through the system knows just
finding jobs and and the restrictions
that you have. And the big thing for me
being I'm still on supervised release.
And the big thing for me is like I can't
help people. I can't easily travel. I
can't I certainly can't go overseas and
and back to Ukraine or anywhere else
that places need help. And I don't
necessarily I mean I would love to go
back and help, but that's not my
priority now. But even when a tornado
hits Mississippi, I can't leave my
district without a lot of permission.
And my PO has been great. Super super
nice guy, super patient guy. Um, I think
his bosses who kind of, you know, sign
off on things as well, uh, have all been
I haven't met any of them, but they they
seemed, you know, they let me come here,
which is a big deal. Um,
they didn't have to, of course, they
don't have to do anything. They you're,
we're bound by the restrictions, and
nobody has to give you any leeway to do
anything, no matter how good of a of a
supervisor leasey you are. but not being
able to travel outside of my district to
help people when they need it most. You
know, these are the most desperate times
of people's lives and the times that I
want to be there and I have the skill
set and and the motivation to be there
to help them. I can't do it because I'm
on supervised release. and even off of
supervised release, finding people that
that want to work with felons, whether
it's in a nonprofit situation or not.
Um, when they hear the story, it
resonates and a lot of people will say,
"Yeah, man. You got you got screwed
completely and they totally believe my
story." Uh, and that makes me feel good,
but it doesn't change the the greater
perception of just having that mark of
felon that that sticks with you. Um, and
so that's kind of where I'm at now of of
finishing the book. I'm helping
companies and individuals who who are
navigating chaos. Um, the skill set is
there, the education's there, the
experience is there. Uh, but it's just
it's almost easier to do your own thing
and and be your own boss and and put
your own efforts out there
than it is to go try to get a job
somewhere. And you know, I I'm not
allowed to work in finance. But even if
I, you know, just
wanted to work at a pick your company at
a at a new tech company, that's that's a
bigger hurdle despite my experience,
despite my education, despite my
knowledge. Um, it's, you know, it's a
challenge. It's a challenge we all face.
So, I don't want to sit here and play
the victim and feel like feel like I'm
being specially targeted against as a as
a post uh prison sentence felon. But, um
hopefully on the other side of it, you
know, I've applied for a pardon. I
petitioned for a pardon.
A handful of people have told me they
were really wanted to help me and then
those people have disappeared.
as happens, people get busy and and with
their own lives or find other people
that deserve it more maybe. I don't
know. But that is something that I would
uh love to see happen and I think that
would free me to
really do what I was doing beforehand,
which is really helping people.
>> What happened with the CIA?
>> How come no one helped you or or do they
stay in contact or you just do they
write you off?
>> Yeah. And that's kind of what I signed
up for. That's another part of the of
what I knew was going to happen and and
you know as a as I've been in the the
game for 25 years like I was running a
lot of these things. I was making a lot
of these decisions. So, I knew very much
what I was getting into and that we had
it set up in in my company that and I
and [sighs and gasps] I don't know how
it is specifically at CIA,
we had it set up like if you do a few
different things, you're done. And
you're still bound by everything. Like
you can't turn around and start telling
secrets and things like that. um you're
still bound by the United States, you
know, treason uh laws,
but if you, you know, if you commit a
violent crime, if you beat your wife, if
you do some things that we don't agree
with and uh you're done, you're cut off.
As much as we love you, as much as we
want to support you, the these are deal
breakers. And one of those is like
pleading guilty to a crime. And that
that crime can, you know, you it could
be not paying a hundred parking tickets
and going to jail, you're done. Maybe
not that, but you know what I mean. Like
when I plead guilty to being a liar,
which is what wire fraud effectively
mean. Anything with fraud in it, you're
you're a convicted liar. Um I burned
those bridges and which is extremely
unfortunate because those are great
people doing great work and now I am
dead to them and they are dead to me.
And that may change at some point in the
future, but it won't change in a way
that we'll work together again, I don't
think. Um, but right now I'm
radioactive, you know, to to that group.
And again, you got to be careful too on
on their side of things working in that
world of
guilt by association. And so if we start
communicating again, you know, people
may start asking what are they doing
behind the scenes? These are all experts
at spycraft, at tradecraft, so what are
they working on? What are they doing?
So, it's just easier just to cut ties.
Again, as much as it hurt and and I knew
that was a that was a big part of why I
didn't want to plead, why I wanted to
fight. Um, but you know, ultimately,
look, if they threaten your family, you
got to make tougher decisions. And then
you find out, like all the other things
behind it, that this isn't going away.
like this isn't
when when powerful people that I
mentioned
put a bullseye on you, this something's
going to happen, right? You're you're
you're not getting out of those
crosshairs, unfortunately. And I've seen
it happen um you know, in my career. So,
I mean, I didn't do it, but I I saw it
happen to other people, not necessarily
in my circumstances, but I've seen when
the when I've seen behind the curtain of
the way the world really works, and it's
not pretty. And um
so I knew what could happen. And so,
again, when I found out kind of all of
those things behind it, it was
ultimately sort of a business decision.
It was a life decision but the most
efficient decision thinking okay I'll
get through this and I'll come out of it
and I'll I'll I'll go you know I do a
tech startup or be a COO of this or that
or the other and then to find out no
you're this this is a life sentence like
you're you're uh a little bit
radioactive unless you do your own thing
um like advise people on a strong skill
set that you have like Stormcraft and
write a book about it which I hope is
you know a success and actually helps
people navigate uncertainty um and the
companies that I've been helping and I
think some of those clients you know
they love me because they see they see
the forest for the trees they see
Michael instead of the felon they see
the skill set um that I bring to the
table and the and you know hopefully the
people listening and watching to this
and I apologize for the length of this
but I thanks for indulging me of
And even speaking to you and I'm sure a
lot of your other guests, even people
who have admitted guilt and been to
prison and paid their debt, like just
because you're have a label attached to
you doesn't mean you're a terrible human
being. And I was definitely not a
terrible human being before I went to
prison. Prison kind of tries to make you
want to be a terrible human being. Maybe
because it's full of criminals uh who
are actively committing crimes in
prison. Um nothing in a camp, of course.
We're talking, you know, cell phones and
vapes. Um, nothing any more than that.
But, um, you certainly see
things that you've never seen as a as a
even in my intelligence career. Um, this
is a new experience, you know, and not
not one I would wish on anyone, but
look, I learned this a long time ago,
even at the Naval Academy and all
through uh my intelligence career. You
put a bunch of guys together in the
worst possible I have not been in those
worst possible circumstances. I've been
in extremely terrible circumstances in
in war zones and in my in my
intelligence career, but you find ways
to joke and have a little bit of fun in
very bad situations. So, I don't think
anybody would ever say like prison camp
is fun, but it has fun moments and light
moments and there's a lot of there were
some laughs and some great stories and
in hindsight it's probably a lot rosier
than I remember it,
>> but um it's nothing I would want to
revisit. I certainly never want to go
back there. Um, but you know, it it it
opened my eyes to a world that I'd never
seen and it was it's a sad situation.
But again, I mean, I'm hoping
the the new administration coming in and
that's been in Trump and and everybody
and the new PO BOP, uh, the new FBI
director, um, all the way down the
chain. I mean, I'm I'm hearing what
little, you know, I can communicate with
other other felons just through the
support groups that I have permission to
communicate through my PO with that, you
know, changes are slowly being made, but
we'll see what happens. But, uh, it's
back to the kind of the ramifications of
it. Yeah, CA that whole world was a very
important world full of very great
relationships that I and again I this is
what I signed up for. This is day one
more or less of like here's what you're
getting into. You can't ever talk about
this I guess unless you go to federal
prison and then here here you are.
[laughter] So, um, I they should have
told me in 1998, you can never talk
about any of this
unless you go to federal prison and then
you can talk about a little bit of it.
You can tell people what you did or that
you were a part of it. But if I had
never gone to prison or been convicted
or plead guilty and and you know, if I
wasn't currently a felon, like I would
have lived the rest of my life and no
one ever would have known outside of the
community. No one ever would have known
of that part of my life. And I, my
sister asked me something to that that
effect one day when I first told her.
And I said, "The only thing you would
have known would like if if I died
before you and a few people showed up at
my funeral that you didn't recognize
[laughter] that looked like me sort of,
you know. Um because in my company we
were all like everybody was look kind of
like accountants and you know like
really in shape hedge fund managers you
know it's like nobody was uh because
just what we did we couldn't we couldn't
do the full-on you know J sock uh
tattoos and scruffy beards and all the
things that that that those guys are so
proud of and I would be too if I had the
opportunity to do it but So that would
be like that'd be the only thing. Some
guys would come and say Mike was a great
guy and you would say who are you and
they would say nice to meet you and they
would leave and that would be it. And
you'd be like who are those strangers
that I've never seen before.
>> That's funny.
>> Um and that but yeah that's my story man
and I I thank you for indulging me on
it.
>> Yeah I appreciate you man. Longest
episode ever on
>> I don't know if that's a good or bad
thing.
>> No it's good man. I mean you know you
got to make the space available for
people when they have a story like that.
You never know going into it what it's
going to be, but you got to just be a
good listener and give the person their
opportunity to share it.
>> Well, that's what uh Leticia said and
that's what I've seen by your other
episodes, too. It's like and and I fell
right into the trap that I hope to avoid
for myself. Not that you're laying it,
but I wanted I wanted this to be much
more interactive and and it has not been
my style,
>> right? That's just the way you do it.
And I think look, you get out of the way
and let people just go.
>> Yeah. Um, and yeah, that's what that's
why, you know, you're you've been
successful, I think. So, well done.
>> I appreciate you, man.
>> Appreciate you.
